X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3325282 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:58:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20081201165814.FYRX7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:58:14 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Front Nut, Thermostat and Coolant Intake hose was : [FlyRotary] Re: Hot first flight Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:58:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C953AC.19C040C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AclTy0/bnKuuktwuRfaA3K616BlCEQABrTyw In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20081201165814.FYRX7376.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C953AC.19C040C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FONT NUT CAUTION =20 Jeff, as Tracy mentioned =96 delay changing the main pulley until a bit = later (unless its clear there is a defect in it) because if you DO let the = thrust bearing slip off its shoulder on the E shaft =96 it=92s a minimum of = taking the front cover off the engine (next to firewall) to get to it. In most = cases, due to limited space under the cowl and motor mounts, you end up taking = the engine off the aircraft. That=92s not fun any time and I imagine even = less so with temps in the 30F range. =20 BUT, if you decide you HAVE to replace the main pulley without removing = the engine, here is a suggestion. =20 Raise the tail of your aircraft as high in the air as you safely can. = This will tend to keep the thrust bearing toward the rear of the engine = (front of aircraft) where it rests against a spacer. That way the shock of an = impact wrench will not have as much tendency to =93walk=94 the bearing forward = and off its shoulder. No guarantee it won=92t get out of position =96 just a = bit less likely - than if the nose is up. =20 There are some instructions in the Mazda manual or somewhere that tells = you how to determine if the thrust bearing has falling out of position by = taking some measurements based on how far you can get the pulley nut back on = the shaft =96 but, I can=92t recall at the moment where they and you = really don=92t want to go there at this time in any case. =20 THERMOSTAT =20 I believe I read about the loss of efficiency by leaving out the plug in = one of Racing Beat=92s old technical catalogs and I am fairly certain they mentioned 20%. Well, I looked in one of their old catalogs and while I = did not find a specific percentage mentioned (at least in my quick search), = this is a quote from them: Quote :=20 =93 7. Mazda=92s water thermostat is a =93by-pass=94 type (apparently = referring to the =BD=94 by-pass hole). Therefore, if it is removed for racing, = the hole below it MUST be plugged=85=85 =85 NOTE: The thermostat should be removed and the bypass plugged for = racing. Do not use restrictors in the system. Free Flow is best. =20 =93 RADIATOR INTAKE HOSE =20 Another thing Racing Beat cautions about - is making certain that the radiator hose on the suction side is the type that has a spring coiled = in side or is otherwise stiff enough to resist collapsing under the suction = of the water pump. If that happens, of courses, your coolant flowed is seriously impeded. =20 The hose may be able to resist the suction at idle or low rpm, but may = not at the higher rpm. If you squeeze the hose and can deform it with your hand pressure , then it is likely too flimsy to serve as the radiator = hose on the intake side of the pump. =20 You are 99% there, Jeff. So no rash action, just take it one step at a = time {:>) =96 easy for me to say. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:41 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hot first flight =20 Impact wrench if you have the room, breaker bar and muscle if not. Be = VERY careful not to let the thrust bearing fall out of place when replacing = the pulley. (as me how I know :>) Actually, my advice would be to leave it alone until you get everything worked out. You really aren't reving the engine so high as to make the ratio change mandatory. You mentioned = that there was no difference. Something is fishy there. Don't let it grow = old and stink. Tracy Crook On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Jeff Whaley = wrote: Thanks Lynn for the technical info; I had not seen been to that website before =85 Racing Beat I am well aware of. Actually I bought one of = their double alternator pulleys, which they claim reduces rpm by 20% =85 other = than aluminum instead of steel it is same diameter of existing pulley. I'd = like to change it anyway for the small weight gain and what-if due to belt breakage =85 but I can't get the nut off =85 any hints? Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Hot first flight =20 Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments =85 attached is a = picture of expansion tank and preflight roll-out =85 the orange line is fuel = return; the brass is pressure gauge pickup and snifter valve installation. After reading Eds' email I now know why the water temperature was so = high. I installed a thermostat with the onset of cold weather, but I couldn't = use the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes = across the bypass hole. Originally the bypass hole was plugged and there was = no thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermostat !! =85 so that's why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is = so long! Thanks Ed for setting me straight and based on your comment about = 20% loss of efficiency, I could possibly see 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight =85 that would be great! For now the thermostat is gone and = bypass is re-plugged. Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on underside of top cowling suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by friction. I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut =85 what's = the secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It's so tight I'm afraid of damaging something trying to get it off. Jeff Belt failures are in modern times, a very rare occurrence. Dual or = multiple belt installations are generally found where a single belt would be operating at close to maximum capability and so are servicing the same pulleys. Multiple belts servicing some different pulleys are not in this class. =20 For same pulley installations multiple belts need to be matched sets. = The Government uses thousands of sets of matched belts for large diesel = trucks. Some with 3 or 4 belts each.This is not a redundant system designed for reliability. In any case where a belt is run to death, or rock damaged, = the remaining belt(s) will often fail in the same instant by ingesting = pieces of the failing belt, it that is not the case, the remaining belt(s) will = fail just from operating close to their load limit. In every case, one must assume that the companion belt has suffered some damage, and it wont = match the length of any single belt installed along side it, so it (they) remaining belts should be discarded. =20 =20 If there is not an obvious FOD cause for the failure, the installation should be checked carefully for alignment, tension and stiffness = (rigidity) at high RPM. Also with accessories loaded and unloaded.=20 =20 The crank nose on the rotary is a weak point, and can fail right at the front main bearing if the belts are over tensioned. Note the mass of = pulleys found on some years of the cars. The single or double pulley in small diameter mounted close to the front cover, is less prone to failure just from the lever arm difference. On assembly it is common to torque the = pulley bolt to 95 foot pounds as this stiffens the stack of items clamped in = place by the bolt. You must then check crank end play at the same torque, as = some end play is used up when this is done. There is a belt length that fits between the water pump and crank pulley with the race pulley set, that = fits perfectly with no idler. I discarded the first such belt after three = years, although there was no sign of wear at all, other than the writing was = gone.=20 =20 The Racing Beat catalogue is the owners manual for rotary engines. Chuck full of things you should know. http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den &ie=3DISO-8859-1&q=3DRacing+Beat =20 Also: From Mazda Competition, =20 http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Info?catalogId=3D= 100 01 &storeId=3D10001&langId=3D-1&subject=3DtechInfo =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C953AC.19C040C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= FONT NUT CAUTION

 

Jeff, as Tracy mentioned – = delay changing the main pulley until a bit later (unless its clear there is a defect in = it) because if you DO let the thrust bearing slip off its shoulder on the E = shaft – it’s a minimum of taking the front cover off the engine (next to firewall) to get to it.=A0 In most cases, due to limited space under the = cowl and motor mounts, you end up taking the engine off the aircraft.=A0 = That’s not fun any time and I imagine even less so with temps in the 30F = range.

 

BUT, if you decide you HAVE to = replace the main pulley without removing the engine, here is a = suggestion.

 

Raise the tail of your aircraft as = high in the air as you safely can.=A0 This will tend to keep the thrust bearing = toward the rear of the engine (front of aircraft) where it rests against a = spacer.=A0 That way the shock of an impact wrench will not have as much tendency to = “walk” the bearing forward and off its shoulder.=A0 No guarantee it won’t = get out of position – just a bit less likely - than if the nose is = up.

 

There are some instructions in the = Mazda manual or somewhere that tells you how to determine if the thrust = bearing has falling out of position by taking some measurements based on how far you = can get the pulley nut back on the shaft =A0– but, I can’t = =A0recall =A0at the moment where they and you really don’t want to go there at = this time in any case.

 

THERMOSTAT

 

I believe I read about the loss of efficiency by leaving out the plug in one of Racing Beat’s old = technical catalogs and I am fairly certain they mentioned 20%.=A0 Well, I looked = in one of their old catalogs and while I did not find a specific percentage = mentioned (at least in my quick search), this is a quote from = them:

Quote : =

“

=

7.       = Mazda’s water thermostat is a “by-pass” = type (apparently referring to the =BD” by-pass = =A0hole).=A0 Therefore, if it is removed for racing, the hole below = it MUST be plugged……

… NOTE:=A0 The thermostat should be removed and the bypass plugged for racing.=A0 Do not use restrictors in = the system.=A0 Free Flow is best.

 =

“

=

RADIATOR INTAKE HOSE

 

Another thing Racing Beat cautions = about - is making certain that the radiator hose on the suction side is the type = that has a spring coiled in side or is otherwise stiff enough to resist = collapsing under the suction of the water pump.=A0 If that happens, of courses, = your coolant flowed is seriously impeded.

 

The hose may be able to resist the = suction at idle or low rpm, but may not at the higher rpm.=A0 If you squeeze the = hose and can =A0deform it with your hand pressure , then it is likely too flimsy = to serve as the radiator hose on the intake side of the = pump.

 

You are 99% there, Jeff.=A0 So no = rash action, just take it one step at a time {:>) – easy for me to = say.

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com=

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= font size=3D2 face=3DArial>

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Monday, December = 01, 2008 10:41 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Hot first flight

 

Impact wrench = if you have the room, breaker bar and muscle if not.   Be VERY careful not = to let the thrust bearing fall out of place when replacing the pulley.  = (as me how I know :>)  Actually, my advice would be to leave it alone = until you get everything worked out.  You really aren't reving the engine = so high as to make the ratio change mandatory.  You mentioned that = there was no difference.  Something is fishy there.  Don't let it grow = old and stink.

Tracy Crook

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> = wrote:

Thanks Lynn for the technical info; I had not seen been to that website before = … Racing Beat I am well aware of. Actually I bought one of their double alternator pulleys, which they claim reduces rpm by 20% … other = than aluminum instead of steel it is same diameter of existing pulley. I'd = like to change it anyway for the small weight gain and what-if due to belt = breakage … but I can't get the nut off … any = hints?

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn = Hanover
Sent: Monday, December = 01, 2008 9:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hot = first flight

 

Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments = … attached is a picture of expansion tank and preflight roll-out … = the orange line is fuel return; the brass is pressure gauge pickup and = snifter valve installation.

After reading Eds' email I now know why the water temperature was so high.  I installed a thermostat with the onset = of cold weather, but I couldn't use the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes across the bypass hole.  Originally the = bypass hole was plugged and there was no thermostat; however, I removed the = bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermostat !! … so that's why the = underside of the Mazda thermostat is so long! Thanks Ed for setting me straight and = based on your comment about 20% loss of efficiency, I could possibly see 230F x = 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight … that would be great! For now the thermostat is gone and bypass is = re-plugged.

Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits = on underside of top cowling suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and = cut by friction.

I tried again last night to remove the alternator = pulley nut … what's the secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It's = so tight I'm afraid of damaging something trying to get it = off.

Jeff

Belt failures are in modern times, a very rare occurrence. Dual or multiple belt installations are generally found = where a single belt would be operating at close to maximum capability and so are servicing the same pulleys. Multiple belts servicing some different = pulleys are not in this class.

 

For same pulley installations multiple belts need = to be matched sets. The Government uses thousands of sets of matched belts for = large diesel trucks. Some with 3 or 4 belts each.This is not a redundant = system designed for reliability. In any case where a belt is run to death, or = rock damaged, the remaining belt(s) will often fail in the same instant by = ingesting pieces of the failing belt, it that is not the case, the remaining = belt(s) will fail just from operating close to their load limit. In every = case, one must assume that the companion belt has suffered some damage, and it = wont match the length of any single belt installed along side it, so it = (they) remaining belts should be = discarded.  

 

If there is not an obvious FOD cause for the = failure, the installation should be checked carefully for alignment, tension and stiffness (rigidity) at high RPM. Also with accessories loaded and = unloaded.

 

The crank nose on the rotary is a weak point, and = can fail right at the front main bearing if the belts are over tensioned. = Note the mass of pulleys found on some years of the cars. The single or double = pulley in small diameter mounted close to the front cover, is less prone to = failure just from the lever arm difference. On assembly it is common to torque the = pulley bolt to 95 foot pounds as this stiffens the stack of items clamped in = place by the bolt. You must then check crank end play at the same torque, as some = end play is used up when this is done. There is a belt length that fits = between the water pump and crank pulley with the race pulley set, that fits = perfectly with no idler. I discarded the first such belt after three years, although = there was no sign of wear at all, other than the writing was = gone. 

 

The Racing Beat catalogue is the owners manual for = rotary engines. Chuck full of things you should know. http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&ie=3DISO-8859-= 1&q=3DRacing+Beat

 

Also: From Mazda = Competition,

 

 

Lynn E. = Hanover  

 

 

 

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