X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3325103 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:41:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.168; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so2777222wfa.25 for ; Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=wmf64ha5acawWcnCXRdNcYKLrvHQJAk5AE1NWCmvQXU=; b=iX8VtcpuCWtrdmaSNJMHCKwKzdptsKB8Mey7bYEByvx8DyYnXD8iBmfIa6NDWWRBqk lsNddXALtSeIOmEV9TcfylBsxLgamzUyygcVKQunN0Qfg9iHVpROlLfv1zVkbfMdJX4F jJnKc4qzuxk/4nNLhlE5Tx2hTJ+UXdoAsuYIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=iZEGnfHm2gnqgsHocj/czDfBnpd8H4LFnCt0rEhzgbMbwe9DdCfLPG4uuofZR3adgb Sk/ft60gLPazXn6k+FsyoJfE7Y0E3QyQdutH/vqnEMbnsmPzrssfsIfkEjYMqe3MFMnx IOthRc9yN0tYo+RyBYbdcWhvSnxCJYpTgtKD4= Received: by 10.114.194.1 with SMTP id r1mr6585167waf.149.1228146064839; Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.115.108.9 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:41:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0812010741h75c99f76n5b4958e400a805c9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:41:04 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hot first flight In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76888_22538702.1228146064834" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 90da7be0cd54ef20 ------=_Part_76888_22538702.1228146064834 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Impact wrench if you have the room, breaker bar and muscle if not. Be VER= Y careful not to let the thrust bearing fall out of place when replacing the pulley. (as me how I know :>) Actually, my advice would be to leave it alone until you get everything worked out. You really aren't reving the engine so high as to make the ratio change mandatory. You mentioned that there was no difference. Something is fishy there. Don't let it grow old and stink. Tracy Crook On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: > Thanks Lynn for the technical info; I had not seen been to that website > before =85 Racing Beat I am well aware of. Actually I bought one of their > double alternator pulleys, which they claim reduces rpm by 20% =85 other = than > aluminum instead of steel it is same diameter of existing pulley. I'd lik= e > to change it anyway for the small weight gain and what-if due to belt > breakage =85 but I can't get the nut off =85 any hints? > > Jeff > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Monday, December 01, 2008 9:46 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Hot first flight > > > > Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments =85 attached is a pictu= re > of expansion tank and preflight roll-out =85 the orange line is fuel retu= rn; > the brass is pressure gauge pickup and snifter valve installation. > > After reading Eds' email I now know why the water temperature was so high= . > I installed a thermostat with the onset of cold weather, but I couldn't = use > the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes acros= s > the bypass hole. Originally the bypass hole was plugged and there was no > thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda > thermostat !! =85 so that's why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is = so > long! Thanks Ed for setting me straight and based on your comment about 2= 0% > loss of efficiency, I could possibly see 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on > next flight =85 that would be great! For now the thermostat is gone and b= ypass > is re-plugged. > > Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on underside of top > cowling suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by friction. > > I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut =85 what's t= he > secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It's so tight I'm afraid of > damaging something trying to get it off. > > Jeff > > Belt failures are in modern times, a very rare occurrence. Dual or multip= le > belt installations are generally found where a single belt would be > operating at close to maximum capability and so are servicing the same > pulleys. Multiple belts servicing some different pulleys are not in this > class. > > > > For same pulley installations multiple belts need to be matched sets. The > Government uses thousands of sets of matched belts for large diesel truck= s. > Some with 3 or 4 belts each.This is not a redundant system designed for > reliability. In any case where a belt is run to death, or rock damaged, t= he > remaining belt(s) will often fail in the same instant by ingesting pieces= of > the failing belt, it that is not the case, the remaining belt(s) will fai= l > just from operating close to their load limit. In every case, one must > assume that the companion belt has suffered some damage, and it wont matc= h > the length of any single belt installed along side it, so it (they) > remaining belts should be discarded. > > > > If there is not an obvious FOD cause for the failure, the installation > should be checked carefully for alignment, tension and stiffness (rigidit= y) > at high RPM. Also with accessories loaded and unloaded. > > > > The crank nose on the rotary is a weak point, and can fail right at the > front main bearing if the belts are over tensioned. Note the mass of pull= eys > found on some years of the cars. The single or double pulley in small > diameter mounted close to the front cover, is less prone to failure just > from the lever arm difference. On assembly it is common to torque the pul= ley > bolt to 95 foot pounds as this stiffens the stack of items clamped in pla= ce > by the bolt. You must then check crank end play at the same torque, as so= me > end play is used up when this is done. There is a belt length that fits > between the water pump and crank pulley with the race pulley set, that fi= ts > perfectly with no idler. I discarded the first such belt after three year= s, > although there was no sign of wear at all, other than the writing was gon= e. > > > > The Racing Beat catalogue is the owners manual for rotary engines. Chuck > full of things you should know. > http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&ie=3DISO-8859-1&q=3DRacing+Beat > > > > Also: From Mazda Competition, > > > > > http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Info?catalogId= =3D10001&storeId=3D10001&langId=3D-1&subject=3DtechInfo > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > ------=_Part_76888_22538702.1228146064834 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Impact wrench if you have the room, breaker bar and muscle if not. &nb= sp; Be VERY careful not to let the thrust bearing fall out of place when re= placing the pulley.  (as me how I know :>)  Actually, my advic= e would be to leave it alone until you get everything worked out.  You= really aren't reving the engine so high as to make the ratio change ma= ndatory.  You mentioned that there was no difference.  Something = is fishy there.  Don't let it grow old and stink.

Tracy Crook


On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 a= t 10:30 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> wrote:

Thanks Lynn fo= r the technical info; I had not seen been to that website before =85 Racing Beat I am well aware of. Actually I bought one of= their double alternator pulleys, which they claim reduces rpm by 20% =85 other th= an aluminum instead of steel it is same diameter of existing pulley. I'd like = to change it anyway for the small weight gain and what-if due to belt breakage= =85 but I can't get the nut off =85 any hints?

Jeff

 <= /p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hot first flight

 

Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments =85 attached is a picture of exp= ansion tank and preflight roll-out =85 the orange line is fuel return; the brass i= s pressure gauge pickup and snifter valve installation.

After reading Eds' email I now know why the water temperature was so high. &n= bsp;I installed a thermostat with the onset of cold weather, but I couldn't u= se the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bulb protrudes across the bypass hole.  Originally the bypass hole was plugged and there was no thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermos= tat !! =85 so that's why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is so long! = Thanks Ed for setting me straight and based on your comment about 20% loss of efficie= ncy, I could possibly see 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight =85 that w= ould be great! For now the thermostat is gone and bypass is re-plugged.

Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on underside of top cowling sug= gests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by friction.

I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut =85 what's t= he secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It's so tight I'm afraid of dama= ging something trying to get it off.

Jeff

Belt failures = are in modern times, a very rare occurrence. Dual or multiple belt installations are generally found where a single belt woul= d be operating at close to maximum capability and so are servicing the same pull= eys. Multiple belts servicing some different pulleys are not in this class.

 

For same pulle= y installations multiple belts need to be matched sets. The Government uses thousands of sets of matched belts for large dies= el trucks. Some with 3 or 4 belts each.This is not a redundant system designed= for reliability. In any case where a belt is run to death, or rock damaged, the remaining belt(s) will often fail in the same instant by ingesting pieces o= f the failing belt, it that is not the case, the remaining belt(s) will fail = just from operating close to their load limit. In every case, one must assume that the companion belt has suffered some damage, and it wont match = the length of any single belt installed along side it, so it (they) remaining b= elts should be discarded.  

 

If there is no= t an obvious FOD cause for the failure, the installation should be checked carefully for alignment, tension and stiffness (rigidity) at high RPM. Also with accessories loaded and unloaded= .

 

The crank nose= on the rotary is a weak point, and can fail right at the front main bearing if the belts are over tensioned. Note the mass of pulleys found on some years of the cars. The single or double pulley in sma= ll diameter mounted close to the front cover, is less prone to failure just fr= om the lever arm difference. On assembly it is common to torque the pulley bol= t to 95 foot pounds as this stiffens the stack of items clamped in place by the bolt. You must then check crank end play at the same torque, as some end pl= ay is used up when this is done. There is a belt length that fits between the water pump and crank pulley with the race pulley set, that fits perfectly w= ith no idler. I discarded the first such belt after three years, although there= was no sign of wear at all, other than the writing was gone. 

 

The Racing Bea= t catalogue is the owners manual for rotary engines. Chuck full of things you should know. http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&ie=3DISO-8859-1&q=3DRacing= +Beat

 

Also: From Maz= da Competition,

 

 

Lynn E. Hanove= r  

 

 <= /p>


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