X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3288034 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:51:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.168; envelope-from=rotary.thjakits@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so640934wfa.25 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:50:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=FpxiQR22zwWZBMAyXEg67dgPDBaHqZJB++F56zHk5s8=; b=C60riKNPJ8c5032XFmmmzOqn/kqXjyryBeYtL75mYerIKTJdvvrfLbLScExl09wwZ7 yQPnYF/T6VchTIqA1Kbr7I060a+fY7TZHjdgzNpQGj4d9XbfZgw29DxMeoIESritv4Xm YVg4ERF+U0l5u4O/OOSnwvzr1rBcjSRyj2PqA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=r+PKtEFr0fNJ52jwfKcd9apBbab0gZ8yFEyu9IwFpGDSSCJi9Z/JihjWGte+D1+Ik4 QZ0fz1yRtUABDB4Nk3tITjzOvUKjmCXv0X22+x7blaRZMtFzc+WRuYZfM8p5DexujdR8 qose7U+5K/vmhhMIx3d0eyYJeFAIEUlTjP5wY= Received: by 10.142.12.14 with SMTP id 14mr3623521wfl.28.1226526651797; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.1.6 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:50:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63163d560811121350k38e5854fr59d90aea666f7684@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:50:51 -0500 From: "Thomas Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Coolers - OFF TOPIC - hailing Lynn Hanover! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22111_9926260.1226526651778" References: ------=_Part_22111_9926260.1226526651778 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't know either... BMW is not the best Motorcycle anymore for a long time!! Nevermind I am a BMW fanatic, but I am conscious that I can get better for less elsewhere. As my cooler looks like, I rather doubt that it is made with a riser inside. Some people say that some cooler installations on BMW are more like to increase oil volume without having to deepen the pan. Some cooling benefit is secondary. Well, I'd rather have a good cooler installation! To be continued... :) Thomas On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Bob White wrote: > OK, understood. I would be surprised if BMW designed the oil cooler so > that it didn't work very well, but I don't know enough about their > design to explain it either. I have a K75. I'll have a look at it > tomorrow to see if it's the same setup. > > Bob W. > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:20:22 -0500 > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > > > the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom outlet. > > What bothers me is the bottom outlet. > > Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there maybe > still > > up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing only damping > > duties... > > > > As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be on top > and > > pushed out the outlet. > > Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of the air > > and purge it from the system. > > Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below the air > > cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance to > get > > pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows. > > > > Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the system, full > flow > > system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets pushed out! > > Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes *initially* through the upper > most > > rows of the cooler has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and pull it > > along on the way down and out the bottom outlet ...... > > > > That is essentially my question!! > > > > Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position does not > > matter?? > > > > I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!! > > It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial data: > > # transparent tanks .... > > > > Thomas/thjakits > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White wrote: > > > > > The way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then you > > > would have a top outlet and vice versa. I agree with what you are > > > saying, but suspect you might get better distribution through the > > > exchanger if the input were on the bottom. > > > > > > I learned the ineffectiveness of plumbing a heat exchanger wrong with > > > the heater core on my old '52 Ford. Since radiators outlets were on > > > the bottom and inlets on the top, I reasoned that the heater core > > > should be the same. As soon as the water level in the system got a > > > little low (and it always did), the heater would only blow cold air. > > > After switching the hoses around, water going in the bottom would > > > always fill the core to the top outlet and the heater worked just fine > > > even with low water in the cooling system. > > > > > > Bob W. > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500 > > > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > > > > > thanks for your reply! > > > > > > > > In both installations the oil-cooler is above the oil level by a good > > > > margin. > > > > > > > > In my opinion the inlet position is not the critical issue, but the > > > outlet. > > > > > > > > As the oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or not) > > > loose > > > > the ability to push all the air out in front of it. > > > > If at the initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening of > the > > > > thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air never > > > gets > > > > pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure values. > > > > With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler through > the > > > > outlet.... > > > > > > > > Am I way out there ????? > > > > > > > > > > > > thjakits > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Bob White > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Thomas, > > > > > > > > > > If the oil cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't think > top > > > > > or bottom inlet will matter too much. If it's above the oil level > in > > > > > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is always full of > > > oil. > > > > > > > > > > My 2 cents and that's probably more than it's worth. :) > > > > > > > > > > Bob W. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500 > > > > > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot of > > > cooling > > > > > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF TOPIC - no pics, so it > > > should > > > > > > load quick too :) > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn Hanover*, but if anyone > else > > > knows > > > > > > something too, please let me know! > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully soon I will start to restore my 79 R100S BMW bike. > > > > > > It does not have an oil cooler yet, but it will when I am done > with > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question regards the correct orientation of the cooler. > > > > > > > > > > > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil cooler installations are > with > > > the > > > > > > connections at the bottom of the cooler. > > > > > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at home - it seems to be a > 6-row, > > > > > single > > > > > > pass cooler. > > > > > > > > > > > > I posted this question on ADV, but got no clear answer. > > > > > > I am still waiting for a reply from one member who posted a > > > reference to > > > > > a > > > > > > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not matter > (in > > > > > > reference to the position of the connections .....) > > > > > > > > > > > > # My concern is, that if the outlet is at the bottom of the > cooler, > > > there > > > > > > may be a air cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler - > > > depending > > > > > on > > > > > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a significant loss of > > > cooling > > > > > > capacity - question: Right or Wrong??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the link to the post on ADV if you care to discuss (Beware, > if > > > > > you're > > > > > > used to the polite, friendly and helping attitude on this list, > you > > > may > > > > > > encounter a somewhat different trend on other lists, ..... at > times! > > > ADV > > > > > in > > > > > > general is a great place, just now and then one encounters > ridicule > > > of > > > > > > varying degrees.....) > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400352 ("Oil > > > Cooler > > > > > > Orientation") > > > > > > > > > > > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, most "performance installations" Sport, Racing - seem to > > > support > > > > > my > > > > > > suggestion - outlet on top.... > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328831 > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399841 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any experience, data, tests - you guys/gals? > > > > > > > > > > > > Next question: Again orientation of the cooler. > > > > > > > > > > > > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we are > > > > > generally > > > > > > talking about 35-40 kts at a minimum or at least a prop blast on > the > > > > > ground. > > > > > > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they are > > > installed > > > > > > vertical in front of the engine or on the right side on top of a > > > crashbar > > > > > in > > > > > > front of the cylinder. > > > > > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a "fairing" for optics at > some > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Check the following thread and you will see either installation > at > > > some > > > > > > point. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51879 (Plenty > of > > > GS > > > > > > installations right away, a center one is on a yellow bike nearly > all > > > the > > > > > > way at the bottom of the 1st page....) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to my wisdom gathered on this list, either > installation is > > > > > about > > > > > > useless: > > > > > > > > > > > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler instead of > > > through > > > > > > # Speeds are of course slower than with airplanes, but the > cooling is > > > > > worse > > > > > > when standing still or in stop and go. > > > > > > # Cooling would be done mainly by radiation in this situation. > > > Question: > > > > > > True/False? > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: Could cooling be improved in this stop/go situation by > > > > > installing > > > > > > the cooler at an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some > convective > > > > > action, > > > > > > once the heated air leaves the back of the cooler? > > > > > > > > > > > > I know, there is probably not much action..... > > > > > > > > > > > > My plan (pending replies...) is to have me a cooler custom welded > (Ed > > > > > > Klepeis ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet at > the > > > > > bottom, > > > > > > outlet at the top. > > > > > > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small > > > alu-duct. > > > > > > Question how long should the the duct be at a minimum in front of > the > > > > > > cooler? > > > > > > It will probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - > aesthetics > > > are > > > > > of > > > > > > course of some importance on the bike! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any airheads on this list? > > > > > > > > > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the end my 100S lived its life without a cooler, but Austrian > airs > > > are > > > > > > way cooler than Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time and suggestions! > > > > > > > > > > > > thjakits > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > > > > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > > > > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > > > Archive and UnSub: > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ > > > > > > -- > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > Archive and UnSub: > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > ------=_Part_22111_9926260.1226526651778 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I don't know either...
 
BMW is not the best Motorcycle anymore for a long time!!
Nevermind I am a BMW fanatic, but I am conscious that I can get better for less elsewhere.
 
As my cooler looks like, I rather doubt that it is made with a riser inside.
Some people say that some cooler installations on BMW are more like to increase oil volume without having to deepen the pan.
Some cooling benefit is secondary.
 
Well, I'd rather have a good cooler installation!
 
To be continued... :)
 

Thomas

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
OK, understood.  I would be surprised if BMW designed the oil cooler so
that it didn't work very well, but I don't know enough about their
design to explain it either.  I have a K75.  I'll have a look at it
tomorrow to see if it's the same setup.

Bob W.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:20:22 -0500
"Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom outlet.
> What bothers me is the bottom outlet.
> Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there maybe still
> up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing only damping
> duties...
>
> As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be on top and
> pushed out the outlet.
> Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of the air
> and purge it from the system.
> Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below the air
> cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance to get
> pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows.
>
> Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the system, full flow
> system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets pushed out!
> Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes *initially* through the upper most
> rows of the cooler has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and pull it
> along on the way down and out the bottom outlet ......
>
> That is essentially my question!!
>
> Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position does not
> matter??
>
> I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!!
> It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial data:
> # transparent tanks ....
>
> Thomas/thjakits
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
>
> > The way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then you
> > would have a top outlet and vice versa.  I agree with what you are
> > saying, but suspect you might get better distribution through the
> > exchanger if the input were on the bottom.
> >
> > I learned the ineffectiveness of plumbing a heat exchanger wrong with
> > the heater core on my old '52 Ford.  Since radiators outlets were on
> > the bottom and inlets on the top, I reasoned that the heater core
> > should be the same.  As soon as the water level in the system got a
> > little low (and it always did), the heater would only blow cold air.
> > After switching the hoses around, water going in the bottom would
> > always fill the core to the top outlet and the heater worked just fine
> > even with low water in the cooling system.
> >
> > Bob W.
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500
> >  "Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > thanks for your reply!
> > >
> > > In both installations the oil-cooler is above the oil level by a good
> > > margin.
> > >
> > > In my opinion the inlet position is not the critical issue, but the
> > outlet.
> > >
> > > As the oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or not)
> > loose
> > > the ability to push all the air out in front of it.
> > > If at the initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening of the
> > > thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air never
> > gets
> > > pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure values.
> > > With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler through the
> > > outlet....
> > >
> > > Am I way out there ?????
> > >
> > >
> > > thjakits
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Thomas,
> > > >
> > > > If the oil cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't think top
> > > > or bottom inlet will matter too much.  If it's above the oil level in
> > > > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is always full of
> > oil.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents and that's probably more than it's worth. :)
> > > >
> > > > Bob W.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500
> > > > "Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot of
> > cooling
> > > > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF TOPIC - no pics, so it
> > should
> > > > > load quick too :)
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn Hanover*, but if anyone else
> > knows
> > > > > something too, please let me know!
> > > > >
> > > > > Hopefully soon I will start to restore my 79 R100S BMW bike.
> > > > > It does not have an oil cooler yet, but it will when I am done with
> > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question regards the correct orientation of the cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil cooler installations are with
> > the
> > > > > connections at the bottom of the cooler.
> > > > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at home - it seems to be a 6-row,
> > > > single
> > > > > pass cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > I posted this question on ADV, but got no clear answer.
> > > > > I am  still waiting for a reply from one member who posted a
> > reference to
> > > > a
> > > > > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not matter (in
> > > > > reference to the position of the connections .....)
> > > > >
> > > > > # My concern is, that if the outlet is at the bottom of the cooler,
> > there
> > > > > may be a air cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler -
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a significant loss of
> > cooling
> > > > > capacity - question: Right or Wrong???
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here the link to the post on ADV if you care to discuss (Beware, if
> > > > you're
> > > > > used to the polite, friendly and helping attitude on this list, you
> > may
> > > > > encounter a somewhat different trend on other lists, ..... at times!
> > ADV
> > > > in
> > > > > general is a great place, just now and then one encounters ridicule
> > of
> > > > > varying degrees.....)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400352    ("Oil
> > Cooler
> > > > > Orientation")
> > > > >
> > > > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my view!
> > > > >
> > > > >  Also, most "performance installations" Sport, Racing - seem to
> > support
> > > > my
> > > > > suggestion - outlet on top....
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328831
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399841
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any experience, data, tests  -   you guys/gals?
> > > > >
> > > > > Next question: Again orientation of the cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we are
> > > > generally
> > > > > talking about 35-40 kts at a minimum or at least a prop blast on the
> > > > ground.
> > > > > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they are
> > installed
> > > > > vertical in front of the engine or on the right side on top of a
> > crashbar
> > > > in
> > > > > front of the cylinder.
> > > > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a "fairing" for optics at some
> > > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Check the following thread and you will see either installation at
> > some
> > > > > point.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51879   (Plenty of
> > GS
> > > > > installations right away, a center one is on a yellow bike nearly all
> > the
> > > > > way at the bottom of the 1st page....)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > According to my wisdom gathered  on this list, either installation is
> > > > about
> > > > > useless:
> > > > >
> > > > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler instead of
> > through
> > > > > # Speeds are of course slower than with airplanes, but the cooling is
> > > > worse
> > > > > when standing still or in stop and go.
> > > > > # Cooling would be done mainly by radiation in this situation.
> > Question:
> > > > > True/False?
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: Could cooling be improved in this stop/go situation by
> > > > installing
> > > > > the cooler at an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some convective
> > > > action,
> > > > > once the heated air leaves the back of the cooler?
> > > > >
> > > > > I know, there is probably not much action.....
> > > > >
> > > > > My plan (pending replies...) is to have me a cooler custom welded (Ed
> > > > > Klepeis  ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet at the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > outlet at the top.
> > > > > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small
> > alu-duct.
> > > > > Question how long should the the duct be at a minimum in front of the
> > > > > cooler?
> > > > > It will probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - aesthetics
> > are
> > > > of
> > > > > course of some importance on the bike!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any airheads on this list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end my 100S lived its life without a cooler, but Austrian airs
> > are
> > > > > way cooler than Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your time and suggestions!
> > > > >
> > > > > thjakits
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> > > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
> > > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > > > Archive and UnSub:
> > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >  N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
> > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
> >
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
>


--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

------=_Part_22111_9926260.1226526651778--