X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3288016 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:45:29 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.46.29; envelope-from=rotary.thjakits@gmail.com Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so329557ywj.7 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=CUgJgPADvqmIJoRj+z46mZIMTkWqluWDQV8ae5CEYXU=; b=AQi9bPrfl+JkKJTCO2kS37IJw5Q2UdUK4cVajCPSi1kfYYEQ7dwxgO6cKA/dOuoXq2 11vxTsakTxO7ircWlIwpYpCgzumpF1Kmb3/3PN1fdzkbrENjBoGJeXz09teD8Ify8DWa /icgBRjqh40llZP358Wflix8osBsCkq23C298= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=sVbmd3AQefbYlJd8lNwtlHkAg9sg615USYMVJrO2HRkcVL2VOXhiqSMQ0PRxctBUy0 UE5iPXQ4YcA27jjg6UB5xjQHZn7c/wL1EnT47bSZq8YifFjKC7eWqaz+ef95bDbjwYXQ 21C0qwSvMAwPA9TsIyufVPByJmKMgXqsK+nj8= Received: by 10.142.238.12 with SMTP id l12mr3620284wfh.314.1226526293356; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.1.6 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63163d560811121344g4b875f9q49b8a7f4661e8b98@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:44:53 -0500 From: "Thomas Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Coolers - OFF TOPIC - hailing Lynn Hanover! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21995_15727646.1226526293330" References: ------=_Part_21995_15727646.1226526293330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Tracy, thanks for your input! I am almost certain it is a parallel. There should be some give-away if it is a P or S.... The way it looks to me it is a parallel, single pass, 6-row. "It *might* matter if it is parallel (as most are nowdays)." - that's what I want to find out! Thomas On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Tracy Crook wrote: > Was the BMW part a series or parallel type? If the cooler was a series > flow type the in and out orientation would not matter. It might matter if > it is parallel (as most are nowdays). > > Tracy > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Bob White wrote: > >> OK, understood. I would be surprised if BMW designed the oil cooler so >> that it didn't work very well, but I don't know enough about their >> design to explain it either. I have a K75. I'll have a look at it >> tomorrow to see if it's the same setup. >> >> Bob W. >> >> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:20:22 -0500 >> "Thomas Jakits" wrote: >> >> > Hi Bob, >> > >> > the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom outlet. >> > What bothers me is the bottom outlet. >> > Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there maybe >> still >> > up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing only damping >> > duties... >> > >> > As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be on top >> and >> > pushed out the outlet. >> > Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of the >> air >> > and purge it from the system. >> > Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below the air >> > cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance to >> get >> > pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows. >> > >> > Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the system, full >> flow >> > system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets pushed out! >> > Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes *initially* through the upper >> most >> > rows of the cooler has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and pull it >> > along on the way down and out the bottom outlet ...... >> > >> > That is essentially my question!! >> > >> > Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position does not >> > matter?? >> > >> > I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!! >> > It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial data: >> > # transparent tanks .... >> > >> > Thomas/thjakits >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White wrote: >> > >> > > The way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then you >> > > would have a top outlet and vice versa. I agree with what you are >> > > saying, but suspect you might get better distribution through the >> > > exchanger if the input were on the bottom. >> > > >> > > I learned the ineffectiveness of plumbing a heat exchanger wrong with >> > > the heater core on my old '52 Ford. Since radiators outlets were on >> > > the bottom and inlets on the top, I reasoned that the heater core >> > > should be the same. As soon as the water level in the system got a >> > > little low (and it always did), the heater would only blow cold air. >> > > After switching the hoses around, water going in the bottom would >> > > always fill the core to the top outlet and the heater worked just fine >> > > even with low water in the cooling system. >> > > >> > > Bob W. >> > > >> > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500 >> > > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hi Bob, >> > > > >> > > > thanks for your reply! >> > > > >> > > > In both installations the oil-cooler is above the oil level by a >> good >> > > > margin. >> > > > >> > > > In my opinion the inlet position is not the critical issue, but the >> > > outlet. >> > > > >> > > > As the oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or >> not) >> > > loose >> > > > the ability to push all the air out in front of it. >> > > > If at the initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening >> of the >> > > > thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air >> never >> > > gets >> > > > pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure values. >> > > > With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler >> through the >> > > > outlet.... >> > > > >> > > > Am I way out there ????? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > thjakits >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Bob White >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi Thomas, >> > > > > >> > > > > If the oil cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't >> think top >> > > > > or bottom inlet will matter too much. If it's above the oil level >> in >> > > > > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is always full >> of >> > > oil. >> > > > > >> > > > > My 2 cents and that's probably more than it's worth. :) >> > > > > >> > > > > Bob W. >> > > > > >> > > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500 >> > > > > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi all, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot of >> > > cooling >> > > > > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF TOPIC - no pics, so >> it >> > > should >> > > > > > load quick too :) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn Hanover*, but if anyone >> else >> > > knows >> > > > > > something too, please let me know! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hopefully soon I will start to restore my 79 R100S BMW bike. >> > > > > > It does not have an oil cooler yet, but it will when I am done >> with >> > > it. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > My question regards the correct orientation of the cooler. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil cooler installations are >> with >> > > the >> > > > > > connections at the bottom of the cooler. >> > > > > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at home - it seems to be a >> 6-row, >> > > > > single >> > > > > > pass cooler. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I posted this question on ADV, but got no clear answer. >> > > > > > I am still waiting for a reply from one member who posted a >> > > reference to >> > > > > a >> > > > > > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not matter >> (in >> > > > > > reference to the position of the connections .....) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > # My concern is, that if the outlet is at the bottom of the >> cooler, >> > > there >> > > > > > may be a air cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler - >> > > depending >> > > > > on >> > > > > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a significant loss of >> > > cooling >> > > > > > capacity - question: Right or Wrong??? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Here the link to the post on ADV if you care to discuss (Beware, >> if >> > > > > you're >> > > > > > used to the polite, friendly and helping attitude on this list, >> you >> > > may >> > > > > > encounter a somewhat different trend on other lists, ..... at >> times! >> > > ADV >> > > > > in >> > > > > > general is a great place, just now and then one encounters >> ridicule >> > > of >> > > > > > varying degrees.....) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400352 ("Oil >> > > Cooler >> > > > > > Orientation") >> > > > > > >> > > > > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my view! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Also, most "performance installations" Sport, Racing - seem to >> > > support >> > > > > my >> > > > > > suggestion - outlet on top.... >> > > > > > >> > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328831 >> > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399841 >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Any experience, data, tests - you guys/gals? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Next question: Again orientation of the cooler. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we >> are >> > > > > generally >> > > > > > talking about 35-40 kts at a minimum or at least a prop blast on >> the >> > > > > ground. >> > > > > > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they are >> > > installed >> > > > > > vertical in front of the engine or on the right side on top of a >> > > crashbar >> > > > > in >> > > > > > front of the cylinder. >> > > > > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a "fairing" for optics at >> some >> > > > > time. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Check the following thread and you will see either installation >> at >> > > some >> > > > > > point. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51879 (Plenty >> of >> > > GS >> > > > > > installations right away, a center one is on a yellow bike >> nearly all >> > > the >> > > > > > way at the bottom of the 1st page....) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > According to my wisdom gathered on this list, either >> installation is >> > > > > about >> > > > > > useless: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler instead of >> > > through >> > > > > > # Speeds are of course slower than with airplanes, but the >> cooling is >> > > > > worse >> > > > > > when standing still or in stop and go. >> > > > > > # Cooling would be done mainly by radiation in this situation. >> > > Question: >> > > > > > True/False? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Question: Could cooling be improved in this stop/go situation by >> > > > > installing >> > > > > > the cooler at an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some >> convective >> > > > > action, >> > > > > > once the heated air leaves the back of the cooler? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I know, there is probably not much action..... >> > > > > > >> > > > > > My plan (pending replies...) is to have me a cooler custom >> welded (Ed >> > > > > > Klepeis ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet at >> the >> > > > > bottom, >> > > > > > outlet at the top. >> > > > > > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small >> > > alu-duct. >> > > > > > Question how long should the the duct be at a minimum in front >> of the >> > > > > > cooler? >> > > > > > It will probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - >> aesthetics >> > > are >> > > > > of >> > > > > > course of some importance on the bike! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Any airheads on this list? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Any suggestions? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > At the end my 100S lived its life without a cooler, but Austrian >> airs >> > > are >> > > > > > way cooler than Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for your time and suggestions! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > thjakits >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> > > > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> > > > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > > > > Archive and UnSub: >> > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > > Archive and UnSub: >> > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > >> > >> >> >> -- >> N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > ------=_Part_21995_15727646.1226526293330 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Tracy,
 
thanks for your input!
 
I am almost certain it is a parallel.
There should be some give-away if it is a P or S....
The way it looks to me it is a parallel, single pass, 6-row.
"It might matter if it is parallel (as most are nowdays)." - that's what I want to find out!
 
Thomas

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Was the BMW part a series or parallel type?  If the cooler was a series flow type the in and out orientation would not matter.  It might matter if it is parallel (as most are nowdays).

Tracy



On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
OK, understood.  I would be surprised if BMW designed the oil cooler so
that it didn't work very well, but I don't know enough about their
design to explain it either.  I have a K75.  I'll have a look at it
tomorrow to see if it's the same setup.

Bob W.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:20:22 -0500
"Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom outlet.
> What bothers me is the bottom outlet.
> Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there maybe still
> up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing only damping
> duties...
>
> As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be on top and
> pushed out the outlet.
> Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of the air
> and purge it from the system.
> Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below the air
> cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance to get
> pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows.
>
> Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the system, full flow
> system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets pushed out!
> Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes *initially* through the upper most
> rows of the cooler has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and pull it
> along on the way down and out the bottom outlet ......
>
> That is essentially my question!!
>
> Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position does not
> matter??
>
> I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!!
> It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial data:
> # transparent tanks ....
>
> Thomas/thjakits
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
>
> > The way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then you
> > would have a top outlet and vice versa.  I agree with what you are
> > saying, but suspect you might get better distribution through the
> > exchanger if the input were on the bottom.
> >
> > I learned the ineffectiveness of plumbing a heat exchanger wrong with
> > the heater core on my old '52 Ford.  Since radiators outlets were on
> > the bottom and inlets on the top, I reasoned that the heater core
> > should be the same.  As soon as the water level in the system got a
> > little low (and it always did), the heater would only blow cold air.
> > After switching the hoses around, water going in the bottom would
> > always fill the core to the top outlet and the heater worked just fine
> > even with low water in the cooling system.
> >
> > Bob W.
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500
> >  "Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > thanks for your reply!
> > >
> > > In both installations the oil-cooler is above the oil level by a good
> > > margin.
> > >
> > > In my opinion the inlet position is not the critical issue, but the
> > outlet.
> > >
> > > As the oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or not)
> > loose
> > > the ability to push all the air out in front of it.
> > > If at the initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening of the
> > > thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air never
> > gets
> > > pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure values.
> > > With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler through the
> > > outlet....
> > >
> > > Am I way out there ?????
> > >
> > >
> > > thjakits
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Thomas,
> > > >
> > > > If the oil cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't think top
> > > > or bottom inlet will matter too much.  If it's above the oil level in
> > > > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is always full of
> > oil.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents and that's probably more than it's worth. :)
> > > >
> > > > Bob W.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500
> > > > "Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot of
> > cooling
> > > > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF TOPIC - no pics, so it
> > should
> > > > > load quick too :)
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn Hanover*, but if anyone else
> > knows
> > > > > something too, please let me know!
> > > > >
> > > > > Hopefully soon I will start to restore my 79 R100S BMW bike.
> > > > > It does not have an oil cooler yet, but it will when I am done with
> > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question regards the correct orientation of the cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil cooler installations are with
> > the
> > > > > connections at the bottom of the cooler.
> > > > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at home - it seems to be a 6-row,
> > > > single
> > > > > pass cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > I posted this question on ADV, but got no clear answer.
> > > > > I am  still waiting for a reply from one member who posted a
> > reference to
> > > > a
> > > > > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not matter (in
> > > > > reference to the position of the connections .....)
> > > > >
> > > > > # My concern is, that if the outlet is at the bottom of the cooler,
> > there
> > > > > may be a air cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler -
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a significant loss of
> > cooling
> > > > > capacity - question: Right or Wrong???
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here the link to the post on ADV if you care to discuss (Beware, if
> > > > you're
> > > > > used to the polite, friendly and helping attitude on this list, you
> > may
> > > > > encounter a somewhat different trend on other lists, ..... at times!
> > ADV
> > > > in
> > > > > general is a great place, just now and then one encounters ridicule
> > of
> > > > > varying degrees.....)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400352    ("Oil
> > Cooler
> > > > > Orientation")
> > > > >
> > > > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my view!
> > > > >
> > > > >  Also, most "performance installations" Sport, Racing - seem to
> > support
> > > > my
> > > > > suggestion - outlet on top....
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328831
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399841
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any experience, data, tests  -   you guys/gals?
> > > > >
> > > > > Next question: Again orientation of the cooler.
> > > > >
> > > > > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we are
> > > > generally
> > > > > talking about 35-40 kts at a minimum or at least a prop blast on the
> > > > ground.
> > > > > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they are
> > installed
> > > > > vertical in front of the engine or on the right side on top of a
> > crashbar
> > > > in
> > > > > front of the cylinder.
> > > > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a "fairing" for optics at some
> > > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Check the following thread and you will see either installation at
> > some
> > > > > point.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51879   (Plenty of
> > GS
> > > > > installations right away, a center one is on a yellow bike nearly all
> > the
> > > > > way at the bottom of the 1st page....)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > According to my wisdom gathered  on this list, either installation is
> > > > about
> > > > > useless:
> > > > >
> > > > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler instead of
> > through
> > > > > # Speeds are of course slower than with airplanes, but the cooling is
> > > > worse
> > > > > when standing still or in stop and go.
> > > > > # Cooling would be done mainly by radiation in this situation.
> > Question:
> > > > > True/False?
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: Could cooling be improved in this stop/go situation by
> > > > installing
> > > > > the cooler at an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some convective
> > > > action,
> > > > > once the heated air leaves the back of the cooler?
> > > > >
> > > > > I know, there is probably not much action.....
> > > > >
> > > > > My plan (pending replies...) is to have me a cooler custom welded (Ed
> > > > > Klepeis  ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet at the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > outlet at the top.
> > > > > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small
> > alu-duct.
> > > > > Question how long should the the duct be at a minimum in front of the
> > > > > cooler?
> > > > > It will probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - aesthetics
> > are
> > > > of
> > > > > course of some importance on the bike!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any airheads on this list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Any suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end my 100S lived its life without a cooler, but Austrian airs
> > are
> > > > > way cooler than Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your time and suggestions!
> > > > >
> > > > > thjakits
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> > > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
> > > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > > > Archive and UnSub:
> > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >  N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
> > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
> >
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
>


--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/

--
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