X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3286533 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:51:53 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.64; envelope-from=techwelding@comcast.net Received: from OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by QMTA07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id e0UZ1a00617UAYkA71rHnN; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:51:17 +0000 Received: from dell ([98.240.119.94]) by OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id e1rC1a00422HbAS8Z1rEfT; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:51:14 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=dgcWMjY7AAAA:8 a=hDIBanDfAAAA:8 a=kmZvq8cdAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=gYX308i0Lx23HONBVcMA:9 a=LVew1CQg1Dy1Ti6-3nEA:7 a=WfksuBBqm6ZhLOVz8ydHzRF4yBgA:4 a=NZj3MHm5q-cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=9OHTkwyHC8cA:10 a=qAoPhxcc8JbzDQ2lZBIA:7 a=AwFbYlRKtkL5aMk7YA69Q5jHyuEA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <000f01c94469$213b5080$5e77f062@dell> From: "Ed Klepeis" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: oil cooler reply Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:51:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C94436.D5F78120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C94436.D5F78120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Thomas Well here's your reply what oil cooler design and size are we = talking about? Let me know so I can reply to you. = Regards = Ed Klepeis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Coolers - OFF TOPIC - hailing Lynn = Hanover! Hi Bob, the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom outlet. What bothers me is the bottom outlet. Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there maybe = still up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing only = damping duties... As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be on top = and pushed out the outlet. Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of the = air and purge it from the system. Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below the = air cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance = to get pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows. Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the system, = full flow system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets = pushed out! Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes initially through the upper = most rows of the cooler has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and = pull it along on the way down and out the bottom outlet ...... That is essentially my question!! Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position does = not matter?? I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!! It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial data: # transparent tanks .... Thomas/thjakits =20 On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White wrote: The way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then you would have a top outlet and vice versa. I agree with what you are saying, but suspect you might get better distribution through the exchanger if the input were on the bottom. I learned the ineffectiveness of plumbing a heat exchanger wrong = with the heater core on my old '52 Ford. Since radiators outlets were on the bottom and inlets on the top, I reasoned that the heater core should be the same. As soon as the water level in the system got a little low (and it always did), the heater would only blow cold air. After switching the hoses around, water going in the bottom would always fill the core to the top outlet and the heater worked just = fine even with low water in the cooling system. Bob W. On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500 "Thomas Jakits" wrote: > Hi Bob, > > thanks for your reply! > > In both installations the oil-cooler is above the oil level by a = good > margin. > > In my opinion the inlet position is not the critical issue, but = the outlet. > > As the oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or = not) loose > the ability to push all the air out in front of it. > If at the initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening = of the > thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air = never gets > pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure values. > With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler = through the > outlet.... > > Am I way out there ????? > > > thjakits > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Bob White = wrote: > > > Hi Thomas, > > > > If the oil cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't = think top > > or bottom inlet will matter too much. If it's above the oil = level in > > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is always full = of oil. > > > > My 2 cents and that's probably more than it's worth. :) > > > > Bob W. > > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500 > > "Thomas Jakits" wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot = of cooling > > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF TOPIC - no pics, so = it should > > > load quick too :) > > > > > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn Hanover*, but if anyone = else knows > > > something too, please let me know! > > > > > > Hopefully soon I will start to restore my 79 R100S BMW bike. > > > It does not have an oil cooler yet, but it will when I am done = with it. > > > > > > My question regards the correct orientation of the cooler. > > > > > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil cooler installations = are with the > > > connections at the bottom of the cooler. > > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at home - it seems to be a = 6-row, > > single > > > pass cooler. > > > > > > I posted this question on ADV, but got no clear answer. > > > I am still waiting for a reply from one member who posted a = reference to > > a > > > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not = matter (in > > > reference to the position of the connections .....) > > > > > > # My concern is, that if the outlet is at the bottom of the = cooler, there > > > may be a air cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler - = depending > > on > > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a significant loss = of cooling > > > capacity - question: Right or Wrong??? > > > > > > > > > Here the link to the post on ADV if you care to discuss = (Beware, if > > you're > > > used to the polite, friendly and helping attitude on this = list, you may > > > encounter a somewhat different trend on other lists, ..... at = times! ADV > > in > > > general is a great place, just now and then one encounters = ridicule of > > > varying degrees.....) > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D400352 = ("Oil Cooler > > > Orientation") > > > > > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my view! > > > > > > Also, most "performance installations" Sport, Racing - seem = to support > > my > > > suggestion - outlet on top.... > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D328831 > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D399841 > > > > > > > > > Any experience, data, tests - you guys/gals? > > > > > > Next question: Again orientation of the cooler. > > > > > > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we = are > > generally > > > talking about 35-40 kts at a minimum or at least a prop blast = on the > > ground. > > > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they = are installed > > > vertical in front of the engine or on the right side on top of = a crashbar > > in > > > front of the cylinder. > > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a "fairing" for optics = at some > > time. > > > > > > Check the following thread and you will see either = installation at some > > > point. > > > > > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D51879 = (Plenty of GS > > > installations right away, a center one is on a yellow bike = nearly all the > > > way at the bottom of the 1st page....) > > > > > > > > > According to my wisdom gathered on this list, either = installation is > > about > > > useless: > > > > > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler instead = of through > > > # Speeds are of course slower than with airplanes, but the = cooling is > > worse > > > when standing still or in stop and go. > > > # Cooling would be done mainly by radiation in this situation. = Question: > > > True/False? > > > > > > Question: Could cooling be improved in this stop/go situation = by > > installing > > > the cooler at an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some = convective > > action, > > > once the heated air leaves the back of the cooler? > > > > > > I know, there is probably not much action..... > > > > > > My plan (pending replies...) is to have me a cooler custom = welded (Ed > > > Klepeis ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet = at the > > bottom, > > > outlet at the top. > > > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small = alu-duct. > > > Question how long should the the duct be at a minimum in front = of the > > > cooler? > > > It will probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - = aesthetics are > > of > > > course of some importance on the bike! > > > > > > > > > Any airheads on this list? > > > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > At the end my 100S lived its life without a cooler, but = Austrian airs are > > > way cooler than Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :) > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time and suggestions! > > > > > > thjakits > > > > > > > > > -- > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C94436.D5F78120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Thomas
        =20 Well here's your reply what oil cooler design and size are we talking = about? Let=20 me know so I can reply to you.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;       =20 Regards
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; =20 Ed Klepeis
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas Jakits
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, = 2008 6:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Coolers -=20 OFF TOPIC - hailing Lynn Hanover!

Hi Bob,
 
the coolers on the BMWs have bottom inlet and bottom = outlet.
What bothers me is the bottom outlet.
Although the oil is under pressure - if you do the numbers there = maybe=20 still up to a 1/4 of the cooler useless with a air pocket doing = only=20 damping duties...
 
As with your radiator, with a top outlet the air will always be = on top=20 and pushed out the outlet.
Once back in the oil lines, viscosity and speed will take care of = the air=20 and purge it from the system.
Once the air is trapped it will not move anymore. The oil below = the air=20 cushion will flow through the cooler, but the air has no more chance = to get=20 pushed out, because ther is no more oil going to the top rows.
 
Of course if the inlet tank is small, no thermostat in the = system, full=20 flow system, there is a small chance that most of the air gets pushed=20 out!
Depends if the oil volume/mass that goes=20 initially through the upper most rows of the = cooler=20 has enough inertia/speed to trapp the air and pull it along on the way = down=20 and out the bottom outlet ......
 
That is essentially my question!!
 
Is oil that much different than water that the outlet position = does not=20 matter??
 
I hope Lynn can shed some light on this - racing and all!!
It would also be interesting if someone has actual test/trial = data:
# transparent tanks ....
 
Thomas/thjakits
 
 

 
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Bob White = <bob@bob-white.com> = wrote:
The=20 way I was visualizing it, if you have a bottom inlet then = you
would have=20 a top outlet and vice versa.  I agree with what you = are
saying, but=20 suspect you might get better distribution through the
exchanger = if the=20 input were on the bottom.

I learned the ineffectiveness of = plumbing a=20 heat exchanger wrong with
the heater core on my old '52 Ford. =  Since=20 radiators outlets were on
the bottom and inlets on the top, I = reasoned=20 that the heater core
should be the same.  As soon as the = water level=20 in the system got a
little low (and it always did), the heater = would only=20 blow cold air.
After switching the hoses around, water going in = the=20 bottom would
always fill the core to the top outlet and the = heater worked=20 just fine
even with low water in the cooling system.

Bob=20 W.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:00:32 -0500
"Thomas Jakits" <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> thanks for your=20 reply!
>
> In both installations the oil-cooler is above = the oil=20 level by a good
> margin.
>
> In my opinion the = inlet=20 position is not the critical issue, but the outlet.
>
> = As the=20 oil slows down considerable in the inlet tank, it may (or not) = loose
>=20 the ability to push all the air out in front of it.
> If at = the=20 initial filling of the cooler after start-up (or opening of = the
>=20 thermostat) air gets trapped at the top of the cooler, this air = never=20 gets
> pushed out, just compressed to oil pressure = values.
>=20 With a top outlet, the air has no choice but leave the cooler = through=20 the
> outlet....
>
> Am I way out there=20 ?????
>
>
> thjakits
>
> On Tue, Nov = 11, 2008=20 at 2:46 PM, Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>=20 wrote:
>
> > Hi Thomas,
> >
> > If = the oil=20 cooler is below the oil level in the bike, I don't think top
> = > or=20 bottom inlet will matter too much.  If it's above the oil level = in
> > the pan, then bottom inlet will ensure the cooler is = always=20 full of oil.
> >
> > My 2 cents and that's = probably more=20 than it's worth. :)
> >
> > Bob W.
> = >
>=20 > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:00 -0500
> > "Thomas Jakits" = <rotary.thjakits@gmail.com&g= t;=20 wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > = >
> >=20 > I know this is a rotary and aviation list, but there is a lot = of=20 cooling
> > > going on here, so I just dare to ask a OFF = TOPIC -=20 no pics, so it should
> > > load quick too :)
> = >=20 >
> > > I would like to ask specifically* Lynn = Hanover*, but=20 if anyone else knows
> > > something too, please let me=20 know!
> > >
> > > Hopefully soon I will = start to=20 restore my 79 R100S BMW bike.
> > > It does not have an = oil=20 cooler yet, but it will when I am done with it.
> > = >
>=20 > > My question regards the correct orientation of the = cooler.
>=20 > >
> > > To my knowledge ALL BMW airhead OEM oil = cooler=20 installations are with the
> > > connections at the = bottom of=20 the cooler.
> > > I have a mangled specimen off a GS at = home -=20 it seems to be a 6-row,
> > single
> > > pass=20 cooler.
> > >
> > > I posted this question = on ADV,=20 but got no clear answer.
> > > I am  still waiting = for a=20 reply from one member who posted a reference to
> > = a
> >=20 > cooler manufacturer that says cooler orientation does not = matter=20 (in
> > > reference to the position of the connections=20 .....)
> > >
> > > # My concern is, that if = the=20 outlet is at the bottom of the cooler, there
> > > may = be a air=20 cushion trapped in the upper part of the cooler - depending
> = >=20 on
> > > the oil pressure and heat, this may cause a = significant=20 loss of cooling
> > > capacity - question: Right or=20 Wrong???
> > >
> > >
> > > Here = the link=20 to the post on ADV if you care to discuss (Beware, if
> >=20 you're
> > > used to the polite, friendly and helping = attitude=20 on this list, you may
> > > encounter a somewhat = different trend=20 on other lists, ..... at times! ADV
> > in
> > = >=20 general is a great place, just now and then one encounters ridicule=20 of
> > > varying degrees.....)
> > >
> = >=20 > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D400352<= /A>=20    ("Oil Cooler
> > > Orientation")
> = >=20 >
> > > All I really want is to confirm or refute my=20 view!
> > >
> > >  Also, most = "performance=20 installations" Sport, Racing - seem to support
> > = my
> >=20 > suggestion - outlet on top....
> > >
> > = > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D328831<= /A>
>=20 > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D399841<= /A>
>=20 > >
> > >
> > > Any experience, data, = tests=20  -   you guys/gals?
> > >
> > > = Next=20 question: Again orientation of the cooler.
> > >
> = >=20 > On this list I learned a lot about ducting. Obviously here we=20 are
> > generally
> > > talking about 35-40 kts = at a=20 minimum or at least a prop blast on the
> > ground.
> = >=20 > On the bikes (I limit this discussion to BMW airheads) they are = installed
> > > vertical in front of the engine or on = the right=20 side on top of a crashbar
> > in
> > > front of = the=20 cylinder.
> > > Generally there are no ducts - one had a = "fairing" for optics at some
> > time.
> > = >
>=20 > > Check the following thread and you will see either = installation at=20 some
> > > point.
> > >
> > > http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D51879=20   (Plenty of GS
> > > installations right away, a = center=20 one is on a yellow bike nearly all the
> > > way at the = bottom=20 of the 1st page....)
> > >
> > >
> = > >=20 According to my wisdom gathered  on this list, either = installation=20 is
> > about
> > > useless:
> > = >
>=20 > > # Most of the cooling air would go around the cooler = instead of=20 through
> > > # Speeds are of course slower than with = airplanes,=20 but the cooling is
> > worse
> > > when = standing still=20 or in stop and go.
> > > # Cooling would be done mainly = by=20 radiation in this situation. Question:
> > > = True/False?
>=20 > >
> > > Question: Could cooling be improved in = this=20 stop/go situation by
> > installing
> > > the = cooler at=20 an angle (30-45 deg) so there would be some convective
> >=20 action,
> > > once the heated air leaves the back of the = cooler?
> > >
> > > I know, there is = probably not=20 much action.....
> > >
> > > My plan = (pending=20 replies...) is to have me a cooler custom welded (Ed
> > = >=20 Klepeis  ?), still need to guestimate the size: 2-pass, inlet = at=20 the
> > bottom,
> > > outlet at the = top.
> >=20 > Install with a 30 degree angle (top forward) and make a small=20 alu-duct.
> > > Question how long should the the duct be = at a=20 minimum in front of the
> > > cooler?
> > > = It will=20 probably not be a real duct, but rather a guide - aesthetics = are
>=20 > of
> > > course of some importance on the = bike!
>=20 > >
> > >
> > > Any airheads on this=20 list?
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> = >=20 >
> > >
> > > At the end my 100S lived = its life=20 without a cooler, but Austrian airs are
> > > way cooler = than=20 Panamanian, so a cooler she will get! :)
> > >
> = >=20 >
> > > Thanks for your time and suggestions!
> = >=20 >
> > > thjakits
> > >
> = >
>=20 >
> > --
> > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> > 3.8 Hours = Total Time=20 and holding
> > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
> >
> = >=20 --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive = and=20 UnSub:
> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
>=20 >
>


--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time = and=20 holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/

--
Homepage: =  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C94436.D5F78120--