X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.9) with ESMTPS id 3232435 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:09:20 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.32; envelope-from=sboese@uwyo.edu Received: from UWMAIL.uwyo.edu (uwmail.uwyo.edu [172.26.4.76]) by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m9LF8ZkR015397 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:08:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sboese@uwyo.edu) Received: from Boesexps ([10.4.44.41]) by UWMAIL.uwyo.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:08:35 -0600 From: "sboese" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:08:20 -0600 Message-ID: <84CE1640A37247529D23181E9CA4A6EF@gg.uwyo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C9335C.8FE90270" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2008 15:08:35.0993 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3F9A090:01C9338E] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C9335C.8FE90270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ed, =20 The original valves supplied by Van's are a tapered plug valve with = brass on brass sliding surfaces. Sliding surfaces of identical metal composition have a tendency to gall and seize. Lubricating with fuel lube ore = something similar helps for awhile but doesn't seem to be a reliable solution to = the problem. Several years ago, those valves have been superseded by valves = of the same design but with delrin plastic inserts that eliminate the = metal to metal sliding contact. I had two of these valves and they always worked well. In the end, the fuel system I have now doesn't require these = valves and I gave them to my hangar mate who replaced his original sticky valve with one of the newer ones and he hasn't had any problems since. =20 The new valves can be purchased from Van's or ACS for about the same = price as the old ones. =20 It doesn't seem to me that fuel of any kind between the sliding surfaces = for lubrication would be a good thing since then the valve would be leaking. =20 Steve Boese =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 7:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 I agree, John. Several folks I mentioned it to at the Rotary Round up thought that the 2 cycle oil in the gas would do the job. But, I would estimate that the force required to turn the handle had nearly doubled - = to the point I was thinking about where I kept my lock-jaw pliers. I don't = use MM, but that might help. I must admit that I couldn't help thinking = that if it did not lubricate the ball valve - was the 2 cycle oil doing anything inside the combustion chamber. Then I remembered that its there as much = to cool as lubricate the seals. =20 Perhaps some of the guys with a background in chemistry could tell us = why 100LL appears to lubricate a brass ball but 2 cycle oil does not appear = to. Are hydrocarbon molecules much larger than lead Pb molecules and unable = to fit in the tight tolerance of the ball value?? =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 Ed, that is interesting about the ball valve, I would think that the MMO = to lube the rotors would also lube the ball valve. JohnD ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:43 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 John, I think your analysis makes lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel system (i.e. no pumps). However, I would think that the EFI pumps would churn the water and fuel together pretty thoroughly. Although, the difference in specific gravity and viscosity of water and gasoline may = well cause one to behave differently in flow in such a system.=20 =20 In any case, I did use some auto gas back a couple of flights ago and = did not like it. The engine had a bit of a miss - nothing bad, but just noticeable - could have been the plugs needing a change to be fair. I = also found out that the lead in the 100LL does do one beneficial thing - the = fuel selector used in the RV is a brass ball type. The lead apparently keeps = it lubricated and it turns easily. I noticed after running about 10 = gallons of auto gas that it started to take considerably more force to turn it. = Now that I have run a number of gallons of leaded gasoline through it, it is back being easy to turn. =20 However, after paying $5.40 /gallon for 100LL on this trip, I may way = find myself swayed to the "dark side" {:>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:39 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 Al, as the water is heavier than the fuel, the water droplets will = normally travel along the bottom of the hose or tubing, dropping out at the first = low location. Some turkey stole the gas out of the Piper Colt one time and = a 4 inch layer of snow without the cap left a bit of water drops laying = around on the bottom of the tank, two cans of dry-gas took care of the = condition. Now if we can get Ed to burn auto fuel, the alcohol will absorb the = water and any left over after a sump drain check will go thru unnoticed. = JohnD=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 In my design, the primary injectors are first in the fuel rail loop with both secondary injectors following then the pressure regulator. So = perhaps the primary injectors were injecting a high ratio of fuel/water whereas = by the time the slug got to the secondaries it was mostly water? =20 Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning either injector pair off (secondary in my incident) both result in the same effect of doubling = the pulse duration. Any time you turn an injector pair off you also ground (turn on) the cold start circuit (right Tracy???). =20 Cold start doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set = doubles the pulse to the remaining two. =20 I was guessing maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the = reality is there is no way of telling where the water was going to go first, or = how much in each, or whatever. =20 Al =20 So turning the secondary injectors off probably simply provide the same effect (for whatever reason) as turning on the cold start.=20 =20 In my "incident" several years ago, I was able to keep the engine = running approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold switch on than with it off. Sometimes 30-45 seconds longer engine run might make a difference. =20 In any case, checking fuel for water goes back to getting the emphasis = it deserves. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson =20 Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered =20 Matthews, NC =20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com =20 http://www.andersonee.com =20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dale Rogers Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 Bob Mears wrote: > I actually a little surprised it had that much stumble. I would think=20 > with the fuel injection and a re circulating system it would just pass = > the water through the system and slowly burn it off. I guess it was a=20 > fair amount of water and thats all that was going through the system=20 > at the time. Like a quart of so in the bottom of the tank. That would=20 > take a bit to pass through. Interesting. =20 That depends on how much fuel can be held in a branch that has no outlet = other than the injector. If the runs off the main path are short, then=20 the effect should be short lived (but pucker-factor is measured in very=20 long, individual, nano-seconds). =20 Dale R. =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ =20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =20 http://www.eset.com =20 =20 =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ =20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =20 http://www.eset.com =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C9335C.8FE90270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ed,

 

The original valves supplied by = Van’s are a tapered plug valve with brass on brass sliding surfaces.  = Sliding surfaces of identical metal composition have a tendency to gall and = seize.  Lubricating with fuel lube ore something similar helps for awhile but = doesn’t seem to be a reliable solution to the problem.  Several years ago, = those valves have been superseded by valves of the same design but with = delrin  plastic inserts that eliminate the metal to metal sliding contact.  = I had two of these valves and they always worked well.  In the end, the = fuel system I have now doesn’t require these valves and I gave them to = my hangar mate who replaced his original sticky valve with one of the newer = ones and he hasn’t had any problems since.

 

The new valves can be purchased = from Van’s or ACS for about the same price as the old ones.

 

It doesn’t seem to me that = fuel of any kind between the sliding surfaces for lubrication would be a good = thing since then the valve would be leaking.

 

Steve Boese  =

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Monday, October 20, = 2008 7:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed = Anderson)

 

I agree, = John.  Several folks I mentioned it to at the Rotary Round up thought that the = 2 cycle oil in the gas would do the job.  But, I would estimate that the = force required to turn the handle had nearly doubled – to the point I = was thinking about where I kept my lock-jaw pliers.  I don’t use MM, but = that might help.  I must admit that I couldn’t help thinking that = if it did not lubricate the ball valve – was the 2 cycle oil doing = anything inside the combustion chamber.  Then I remembered that its there as = much to cool as lubricate the seals.

 

Perhaps some of = the guys with a background in chemistry could tell us why 100LL appears to = lubricate a brass ball but 2 cycle oil does not appear to.  Are hydrocarbon = molecules much larger than lead Pb molecules and unable  to fit in the tight tolerance of the ball value??

 

Ed<= /p>

 

Ed = Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing
Sent: Monday, October 20, = 2008 9:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed = Anderson)

 

Ed, that is interesting = about the ball valve, I would think that the MMO to lube the rotors would also = lube the ball valve.  JohnD

----- Original Message = -----

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:43 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson)

 

John, I think = your analysis makes lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel system (i.e. no pumps).  However, I would think that the EFI pumps would churn the = water and fuel together pretty thoroughly.  Although, the difference in = specific gravity and viscosity of water and gasoline may well cause one to behave differently in flow in such a system.

 

In any case, I = did use some auto gas back a couple of flights ago and did not like it.  = The engine had a bit of a miss – nothing bad, but just noticeable = – could have been the plugs needing a change to be fair.  I also = found out that the lead in the 100LL does do one beneficial thing – the fuel selector used in the RV is a brass ball type.  The lead apparently = keeps it lubricated and it turns easily.  I noticed after running about = 10 gallons of auto gas that it started to take considerably more force to = turn it.  Now that I have run a number of gallons of leaded gasoline = through it, it is back being easy to turn.

 

However, after = paying $5.40 /gallon for 100LL on this trip, I may way find myself swayed to = the “dark side” {:>)

 

Ed<= /p>

 

Ed = Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing
Sent: Monday, October 20, = 2008 8:39 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed = Anderson)

 

Al, as the water is heavier = than the fuel, the water droplets will normally travel along the bottom of the = hose or tubing, dropping out at the first low location.  Some turkey stole = the gas out of the Piper Colt one time and a 4 inch layer of snow without the = cap left a bit of water drops laying around on the bottom of the tank, two cans = of dry-gas took care of the condition.  Now if we can get Ed to burn = auto fuel, the alcohol will absorb the water and any left over after a sump = drain check will go thru unnoticed.  JohnD 

----- Original Message = -----

From: Al = Gietzen

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:40 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson)

 

In my design, the primary injectors are first = in the fuel rail loop with

both secondary injectors following then the = pressure regulator.  So perhaps

the primary injectors were injecting a high = ratio of fuel/water whereas by

the time the slug got to the secondaries it = was mostly water?

 

Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning = either injector pair off

(secondary in my incident) both result in the = same effect of doubling the

pulse duration.  Any time you turn an = injector  pair off you also ground

(turn on) the cold start circuit (right = Tracy???).

 

Cold start doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set doubles = the pulse to the remaining two.

 

I was guessing maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the = reality is there is no way of telling where the water was going to go first, or how = much in each, or whatever.

 

Al

 

So turning the secondary injectors off = probably simply provide the same

effect (for whatever reason) as turning on = the cold start.

 

In my "incident" several years ago, = I was able to keep the engine running

approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold = switch on than with it off.

Sometimes 30-45 seconds longer engine run = might make a difference.

 

In any case, checking fuel for water goes = back to getting the emphasis it

deserves.

 

Ed

 

Ed Anderson

 

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

 

Matthews, NC

 

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

 

http://www.andersonee.com

 

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs= .htm#N494BW

 

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On

Behalf Of Dale Rogers

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40 = AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or = another adventure in the

aviation events of Ed = Anderson)

 

Bob Mears <bmears9413@aol.com> = wrote:

> I actually a little surprised it had = that much stumble. I would think

> with the fuel injection and a re = circulating system it would just pass

> the water through the system and slowly = burn it off. I guess it was a

> fair amount of water and thats all that = was going through the system

> at the time. Like a quart of so in the = bottom of the tank. That would

> take a bit to pass through. = Interesting.

 

That depends on how much fuel can be held in = a branch that has no outlet

other than the injector.  If the runs = off the main path are short, then

the effect should be short lived (but = pucker-factor is measured in very

long, individual, = nano-seconds).

 

Dale R.

 

 

 

--

Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:

http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrota= ry/List.html

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 3267 (20080714) = __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 3267 (20080714) = __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

--

Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= /p>



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C9335C.8FE90270--