X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.237] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.9) with ESMTP id 3232293 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:54:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.237; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so2352845rvb.7 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:53:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=88bYP/jSY3mSb5Q34QY4mPuPN2/dRqaC+6uzc6W6ejs=; b=kBRE6T5JaRniiOLm0rX4paEZ31/KNXsKtgDiGSpnR3egZeAkFTWqmYCD9cdar+zjZH UhL3P8R4TLfBPCcGAANr66xa+TpCayK1kA4VQtlryG9tThRmcv9zH3jdgfBG3kwVXL84 POMETXJ6QiNiGcavIWtbXugcCzRQHjqR2Vm38= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=FGBkdswvpV3anwhufFgr7CZBUjT22AcRchp+QeOqbB47TYwmDev3Y304xlArv07P2F YFq7/75tYPe3XgOLIujL+8txWdjnQb1wStngbFW92ldmhSeV3LTc9FIXw7Z7IIEe4JzY W38FdnS7tiBNFji63wPsfgNhw7rdvpYi0DU4U= Received: by 10.141.114.15 with SMTP id r15mr5679109rvm.164.1224597227809; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.41.18 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0810210653t6856c1e6gdf5eefcd1fdc2203@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:53:47 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4839_894496.1224597227801" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0ac3d7bd3f80b141 ------=_Part_4839_894496.1224597227801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Back when I used to use one, the tank selector valve was always a source o= f concern due to its stickiness. Frequently felt like I was going to twist the handle off when switching tanks. 2 stroke didn't help at all. Mine wa= s a tapered cone design with a spring forcing it down into a conical bore rather than a ball valve. Only way I could get it to work smoothly was to lift gently on the handle in order to relieve the spring pressure while I turned it. I got rid of the valve (and the carbs) when I went to EFI. Anyway, glad you handled the 'water emergency' with your usual grace Ed. BTW, thanks to all you rotor-heads who made the Rotary roundup fly-in such = a success. Hope you all enjoyed it as much as Laura and I. If you couldn't make it, don't feel bad about staying home and working on your projects. Building and showing how it's done like Al did at the Flabob fly-in probabl= y does more than anything else to promote and educate other builders about th= e rotary. Tracy (back to finishing the -8) On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Ed Anderson wro= te: > I agree, John. Several folks I mentioned it to at the Rotary Round up > thought that the 2 cycle oil in the gas would do the job. But, I would > estimate that the force required to turn the handle had nearly doubled = =96 to > the point I was thinking about where I kept my lock-jaw pliers. I don't = use > MM, but that might help. I must admit that I couldn't help thinking that= if > it did not lubricate the ball valve =96 was the 2 cycle oil doing anythin= g > inside the combustion chamber. Then I remembered that its there as much = to > cool as lubricate the seals. > > > > Perhaps some of the guys with a background in chemistry could tell us why > 100LL appears to lubricate a brass ball but 2 cycle oil does not appear t= o. > Are hydrocarbon molecules much larger than lead Pb molecules and unable = to > fit in the tight tolerance of the ball value?? > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *John Downing > *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2008 9:00 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the > aviation events of Ed Anderson) > > > > Ed, that is interesting about the ball valve, I would think that the MMO = to > lube the rotors would also lube the ball valve. JohnD > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Ed Anderson > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2008 8:43 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the > aviation events of Ed Anderson) > > > > John, I think your analysis makes lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel > system (i.e. no pumps). However, I would think that the EFI pumps would > churn the water and fuel together pretty thoroughly. Although, the > difference in specific gravity and viscosity of water and gasoline may we= ll > cause one to behave differently in flow in such a system. > > > > In any case, I did use some auto gas back a couple of flights ago and did > not like it. The engine had a bit of a miss =96 nothing bad, but just > noticeable =96 could have been the plugs needing a change to be fair. I = also > found out that the lead in the 100LL does do one beneficial thing =96 the= fuel > selector used in the RV is a brass ball type. The lead apparently keeps = it > lubricated and it turns easily. I noticed after running about 10 gallons= of > auto gas that it started to take considerably more force to turn it. Now > that I have run a number of gallons of leaded gasoline through it, it is > back being easy to turn. > > > > However, after paying $5.40 /gallon for 100LL on this trip, I may way fin= d > myself swayed to the "dark side" {:>) > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *John Downing > *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2008 8:39 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the > aviation events of Ed Anderson) > > > > Al, as the water is heavier than the fuel, the water droplets will normal= ly > travel along the bottom of the hose or tubing, dropping out at the first = low > location. Some turkey stole the gas out of the Piper Colt one time and a= 4 > inch layer of snow without the cap left a bit of water drops laying aroun= d > on the bottom of the tank, two cans of dry-gas took care of the condition= . > Now if we can get Ed to burn auto fuel, the alcohol will absorb the water > and any left over after a sump drain check will go thru unnoticed. JohnD > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Al Gietzen > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2008 4:40 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the > aviation events of Ed Anderson) > > > > In my design, the primary injectors are first in the fuel rail loop with > > both secondary injectors following then the pressure regulator. So perha= ps > > the primary injectors were injecting a high ratio of fuel/water whereas b= y > > the time the slug got to the secondaries it was mostly water? > > > > Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning either injector pair off > > (secondary in my incident) both result in the same effect of doubling the > > pulse duration. Any time you turn an injector pair off you also ground > > (turn on) the cold start circuit (right Tracy???). > > > > Cold start doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set > doubles the pulse to the remaining two. > > > > I was guessing maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the > reality is there is no way of telling where the water was going to go fir= st, > or how much in each, or whatever. > > > > Al > > > > So turning the secondary injectors off probably simply provide the same > > effect (for whatever reason) as turning on the cold start. > > > > In my "incident" several years ago, I was able to keep the engine running > > approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold switch on than with it off. > > Sometimes 30-45 seconds longer engine run might make a difference. > > > > In any case, checking fuel for water goes back to getting the emphasis it > > deserves. > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > > > Matthews, NC > > > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > > > http://www.andersonee.com > > > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > > Behalf Of Dale Rogers > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40 AM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the > > aviation events of Ed Anderson) > > > > Bob Mears wrote: > > > I actually a little surprised it had that much stumble. I would think > > > with the fuel injection and a re circulating system it would just pass > > > the water through the system and slowly burn it off. I guess it was a > > > fair amount of water and thats all that was going through the system > > > at the time. Like a quart of so in the bottom of the tank. That would > > > take a bit to pass through. Interesting. > > > > That depends on how much fuel can be held in a branch that has no outlet > > other than the injector. If the runs off the main path are short, then > > the effect should be short lived (but pucker-factor is measured in very > > long, individual, nano-seconds). > > > > Dale R. > > > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > ------=_Part_4839_894496.1224597227801 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Back when I used to use one,  the tank selector valve was always a sou= rce of concern due to its stickiness.  Frequently felt like I was goin= g to twist the handle off when switching tanks.  2 stroke didn't h= elp at all.  Mine was a tapered cone design with a spring forcing it d= own into a conical bore rather than a ball valve.  Only way I could ge= t it to work smoothly was to lift gently on the handle in order to relieve = the spring pressure while I turned it.   I got rid of the valve (= and the carbs) when I went to EFI.   Anyway, glad you handled the= 'water emergency' with your usual grace Ed.

BTW, thanks to all you rotor-heads who made the Rotary roundup fly-in s= uch a success.  Hope you all enjoyed it as much as Laura and I.  = If you couldn't make it, don't feel bad about staying home and work= ing on your projects.  Building and showing how it's done like Al = did at the Flabob fly-in probably does more than anything else to promote a= nd educate other builders about the rotary.

Tracy  (back to finishing the -8)


On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>= ; wrote:

I agree, John.  Several folks= I mentioned it to at the Rotary Round up thought that the 2 cycle oil in the gas would = do the job.  But, I would estimate that the force required to turn the ha= ndle had nearly doubled =96 to the point I was thinking about where I kept my lock-jaw pliers.  I don't use MM, but that might help.  I must ad= mit that I couldn't help thinking that if it did not lubricate the ball valve =96 was the 2 cycle oil doing anything inside the combustion chamber.  The= n I remembered that its there as much to cool as lubricate the seals.

 

Perhaps some of the guys with a ba= ckground in chemistry could tell us why 100LL appears to lubricate a brass ball but = 2 cycle oil does not appear to.  Are hydrocarbon molecules much larger t= han lead Pb molecules and unable  to fit in the tight tolerance of the ball val= ue??

 

Ed

 

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing
Sent: Monday, October 20, = 2008 9:00 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= ater in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson)

 

Ed, that is interesting about the ball valve, I would think that the MMO to lube the rotors would also lube the ball valve.  JohnD=

----- Original Message -----

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From= : Ed Anderson

Sent: Monday= , October 20, 2008 8:43 PM

Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson= )

 

John, I think your analysis makes = lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel system (i.e. no pumps).  However, I would think that the EFI pumps would churn the water and fuel together pretty thoroughly.  Although, the difference in specific gravity and viscosit= y of water and gasoline may well cause one to behave differently in flow in such= a system.

 

In any case, I did use some auto g= as back a couple of flights ago and did not like it.  The engine had a bit of = a miss =96 nothing bad, but just noticeable =96 could have been the plugs needing a change to be fair.  I also found out that the lead in the 10= 0LL does do one beneficial thing =96 the fuel selector used in the RV is a brass ball type.  The lead apparently keeps it lubricated and it turns easily.  I noticed after running about 10 gallons of auto gas that it started to take considerably more force to turn it.  Now that I have r= un a number of gallons of leaded gasoline through it, it is back being easy to t= urn.

 

However, after paying $5.40 /gallo= n for 100LL on this trip, I may way find myself swayed to the "dark side" {:>)

 

Ed

 

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Downing
Sent: Monday, October 20, = 2008 8:39 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: W= ater in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson)<= /font>

 

Al, as the water is heavier than the fuel, the water droplets will normally travel along the bottom of the hose or tubing, dropping out a= t the first low location.  Some turkey stole the gas out of the Piper Co= lt one time and a 4 inch layer of snow without the cap left a bit of water dro= ps laying around on the bottom of the tank, two cans of dry-gas took care of t= he condition.  Now if we can get Ed to burn auto fuel, the alcohol will absorb the water and any left over after a sump drain check will go thru unnoticed.  JohnD 

----- Original Message -----

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From= : Al Gietzen

Sent: Monday= , October 20, 2008 4:40 PM

Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson= )

 

In my design, the primary injectors are first in the fuel rail loop with

both secondary injectors following then the pressure regulator.  So perhaps=

the primary injectors were injecting a high ratio of fuel/water whereas by

the time the slug got to the secondaries it was mostly water?

 =

Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning either injector pair off=

(secon= dary in my incident) both result in the same effect of doubling the

pulse duration.  Any time you turn an injector  pair off you also groun= d

(turn on) the cold start circuit (right Tracy???).

 =

Cold start doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set doubles the pulse to the remaining two.

 =

I was guessing maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the reality is there is no way = of telling where the water was going to go first, or how much in each, or whatever.

 =

Al

 =

So turning the secondary injectors off probably simply provide the same=

effect (for whatever reason) as turning on the cold start.

 =

In my "incident" several years ago, I was able to keep the engine running

approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold switch on than with it off.

Someti= mes 30-45 seconds longer engine run might make a difference.

 =

In any case, checking fuel for water goes back to getting the emphasis it

deserv= es.

 =

Ed

 =

Ed Anderson

 =

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

 =

Matthe= ws, NC

 =

eanderson@carolina= .rr.com

 =

http://www.andersonee.com=

 =

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=

 =

http://www.dm= ack.net/mazda/index.html

 =

 =

-----O= riginal Message-----

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On

Behalf Of Dale Rogers

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40 AM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the<= /p>

aviati= on events of Ed Anderson)

 =

Bob Mears <bmears941= 3@aol.com> wrote:

> I actually a little surprised it had that much stumble. I would think

> with the fuel injection and a re circulating system it would just pass

> the water through the system and slowly burn it off. I guess it was a

> fair amount of water and thats all that was going through the system

> at the time. Like a quart of so in the bottom of the tank. That would

> take a bit to pass through. Interesting.

 =

That depends on how much fuel can be held in a branch that has no outlet =

other than the injector.  If the runs off the main path are short, then

the effect should be short lived (but pucker-factor is measured in very =

long, individual, nano-seconds).

 =

Dale R.

 =

 =

 =

--

Homepa= ge:  http://www.flyrotar= y.com/

Archiv= e and UnSub:

http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 =

______= ____ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

databa= se 3267 (20080714) __________

 =

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 =

http://www.eset.com<= /font>

 =

 =

 =

______= ____ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

databa= se 3267 (20080714) __________

 =

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 =

http://www.eset.com<= /font>

 =

 =

 =

--

Homepa= ge:  http://www.flyrotar= y.com/

Archiv= e and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


------=_Part_4839_894496.1224597227801--