X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp112.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.93] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.9) with SMTP id 3231606 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:50:08 -0400 Received: (qmail 36969 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2008 00:50:08 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=X8f8iwJai+AaRNB9Nnzc8C8/cyNlvKQFMb60wmFOGBIum5VvoEad5LGlpdK3Xb7jF/mKLNBsiQ8LQ+FDf0vBy9jQuiioWT64q/VpL3GI6sgWQjcQAjPVTaO4nud8SSLKGF7lSPFXydRoyITlXywMjVHtO8bw7J7qdFIkrddOIVA= ; Received: from unknown (HELO mom) (downing.j@75.5.237.219 with login) by smtp112.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Oct 2008 00:50:06 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: kRLUV8gVM1nGY1a30QFWgZoGkjoawh4hbpKt4__TbqWqiszHGVez2YfFXNAFwOPZiEFNMVXiNkNqq9cHwqrcFKe579wvEIkR2Wd06.Tjf4NfHVH5lFwUgATN9T2oRrClOQiHE8tF3HPGUw0OAuwD7FsHDrpiFiHzSXmkEU3Wun0mIsT668eMu64Xyft6 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <008e01c93318$5b2d58e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "John Downing" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:00:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008B_01C932F6.D3418580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C932F6.D3418580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, that is interesting about the ball valve, I would think that the MMO = to lube the rotors would also lube the ball valve. JohnD ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:43 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the = aviation events of Ed Anderson) John, I think your analysis makes lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel = system (i.e. no pumps). However, I would think that the EFI pumps would = churn the water and fuel together pretty thoroughly. Although, the = difference in specific gravity and viscosity of water and gasoline may = well cause one to behave differently in flow in such a system.=20 =20 In any case, I did use some auto gas back a couple of flights ago and = did not like it. The engine had a bit of a miss - nothing bad, but just = noticeable - could have been the plugs needing a change to be fair. I = also found out that the lead in the 100LL does do one beneficial thing - = the fuel selector used in the RV is a brass ball type. The lead = apparently keeps it lubricated and it turns easily. I noticed after = running about 10 gallons of auto gas that it started to take = considerably more force to turn it. Now that I have run a number of = gallons of leaded gasoline through it, it is back being easy to turn. =20 However, after paying $5.40 /gallon for 100LL on this trip, I may way = find myself swayed to the "dark side" {:>) =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of John Downing Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:39 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the = aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 Al, as the water is heavier than the fuel, the water droplets will = normally travel along the bottom of the hose or tubing, dropping out at = the first low location. Some turkey stole the gas out of the Piper Colt = one time and a 4 inch layer of snow without the cap left a bit of water = drops laying around on the bottom of the tank, two cans of dry-gas took = care of the condition. Now if we can get Ed to burn auto fuel, the = alcohol will absorb the water and any left over after a sump drain check = will go thru unnoticed. JohnD=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in = the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 In my design, the primary injectors are first in the fuel rail loop = with both secondary injectors following then the pressure regulator. So = perhaps the primary injectors were injecting a high ratio of fuel/water = whereas by the time the slug got to the secondaries it was mostly water? =20 Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning either injector pair off (secondary in my incident) both result in the same effect of = doubling the pulse duration. Any time you turn an injector pair off you also = ground (turn on) the cold start circuit (right Tracy???). =20 Cold start doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set = doubles the pulse to the remaining two. =20 I was guessing maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the = reality is there is no way of telling where the water was going to go = first, or how much in each, or whatever. =20 Al =20 So turning the secondary injectors off probably simply provide the = same effect (for whatever reason) as turning on the cold start.=20 =20 In my "incident" several years ago, I was able to keep the engine = running approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold switch on than with it = off. Sometimes 30-45 seconds longer engine run might make a difference. =20 In any case, checking fuel for water goes back to getting the = emphasis it deserves. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson =20 Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered =20 Matthews, NC =20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com =20 http://www.andersonee.com =20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Dale Rogers Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in = the aviation events of Ed Anderson) =20 Bob Mears wrote: > I actually a little surprised it had that much stumble. I would = think=20 > with the fuel injection and a re circulating system it would just = pass=20 > the water through the system and slowly burn it off. I guess it = was a=20 > fair amount of water and thats all that was going through the = system=20 > at the time. Like a quart of so in the bottom of the tank. That = would=20 > take a bit to pass through. Interesting. =20 That depends on how much fuel can be held in a branch that has no = outlet=20 other than the injector. If the runs off the main path are short, = then=20 the effect should be short lived (but pucker-factor is measured in = very=20 long, individual, nano-seconds). =20 Dale R. =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ =20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =20 http://www.eset.com =20 =20 =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ =20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =20 http://www.eset.com =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C932F6.D3418580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed, that is interesting about the ball = valve, I=20 would think that the MMO to lube the rotors would also lube the ball=20 valve.  JohnD
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 = 8:43=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water = in Fuel??=20 (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed Anderson)

John, I = think your=20 analysis makes lots of sense for a gravity fed fuel system (i.e. no=20 pumps).  However, I would think that the EFI pumps would churn = the water=20 and fuel together pretty thoroughly.  Although, the difference in = specific gravity and viscosity of water and gasoline may well cause = one to=20 behave differently in flow in such a system. =

 

In any = case, I did=20 use some auto gas back a couple of flights ago and did not like = it.  The=20 engine had a bit of a miss =96 nothing bad, but just noticeable =96 = could have=20 been the plugs needing a change to be fair.  I also found out = that the=20 lead in the 100LL does do one beneficial thing =96 the fuel selector = used in the=20 RV is a brass ball type.  The lead apparently keeps it lubricated = and it=20 turns easily.  I noticed after running about 10 gallons of auto = gas that=20 it started to take considerably more force to turn it.  Now that = I have=20 run a number of gallons of leaded gasoline through it, it is back = being easy=20 to turn.

 

However, = after paying=20 $5.40 /gallon for 100LL on this trip, I may way find myself swayed to = the=20 =93dark side=94 {:>)

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of John Downing
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 = 8:39=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water = in Fuel??=20 (or another adventure in the aviation events of Ed=20 Anderson)

 

Al, as the water is = heavier than=20 the fuel, the water droplets will normally travel along the bottom of = the hose=20 or tubing, dropping out at the first low location.  Some turkey = stole the=20 gas out of the Piper Colt one time and a 4 inch layer of snow without = the cap=20 left a bit of water drops laying around on the bottom of the tank, two = cans of=20 dry-gas took care of the condition.  Now if we can get Ed to burn = auto=20 fuel, the alcohol will absorb the water and any left over after a sump = drain=20 check will go thru unnoticed. =20 JohnD 

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Al = Gietzen=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Monday,=20 October 20, 2008 4:40 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? (or another adventure in the = aviation events=20 of Ed Anderson)

 

In my design, the primary injectors are = first in the=20 fuel rail loop with

both secondary injectors following then = the pressure=20 regulator.  So perhaps

the primary injectors were injecting a = high ratio of=20 fuel/water whereas by

the time the slug got to the secondaries = it was=20 mostly water?

 

Wait, turning the cold start on OR turning = either=20 injector pair off

(secondary in my incident) both result in = the same=20 effect of doubling the

pulse duration.  Any time you turn an = injector  pair off you also ground

(turn on) the cold start circuit (right=20 Tracy???).

 

Cold = start=20 doubles the pulse to all 4 injectors; turning off one set doubles = the pulse=20 to the remaining two.

 

I was = guessing=20 maybe the secondary were maybe first in line; but the reality is = there is no=20 way of telling where the water was going to go first, or how much in = each,=20 or whatever.

 

Al

 

So turning the secondary injectors off = probably=20 simply provide the same

effect (for whatever reason) as turning on = the cold=20 start.

 

In my "incident" several years ago, I was = able to=20 keep the engine running

approx 30-45 seconds longer with the cold = switch on=20 than with it off.

Sometimes 30-45 seconds longer engine run = might make=20 a difference.

 

In any case, checking fuel for water goes = back to=20 getting the emphasis it

deserves.

 

Ed

 

Ed Anderson

 

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

 

Matthews, NC

 

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

 

http://www.andersonee.com

 

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 On

Behalf Of Dale = Rogers

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:40=20 AM

To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Fuel?? = (or another=20 adventure in the

aviation events of Ed=20 Anderson)

 

Bob Mears <bmears9413@aol.com>=20 wrote:

> I actually a little surprised it had = that much=20 stumble. I would think

> with the fuel injection and a re = circulating=20 system it would just pass

> the water through the system and = slowly burn it=20 off. I guess it was a

> fair amount of water and thats all = that was=20 going through the system

> at the time. Like a quart of so in = the bottom=20 of the tank. That would

> take a bit to pass through.=20 Interesting.

 

That depends on how much fuel can be held = in a=20 branch that has no outlet

other than the injector.  If the runs = off the=20 main path are short, then

the effect should be short lived (but = pucker-factor=20 is measured in very

long, individual,=20 nano-seconds).

 

Dale R.

 

 

 

--

Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and = UnSub:

http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus,=20 version of virus signature

database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus,=20 version of virus signature

database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

--

Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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