X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTPS id 3078692 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:53:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.187; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-219-247.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.219.247]) by mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m7FLqYAt017871 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:52:36 +1000 Message-ID: <005a01c8ff21$3df13240$6400a8c0@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Mogas Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:52:39 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01C8FF75.0E51D680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080815-0, 15/08/2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C8FF75.0E51D680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn & Mike, From my perspective - alcohol is here to stay, 100LL won't be around for = long (so I'm told). Bottom line, we need to adapt to those changes. To = do so we need to discuss issues, share information and educate builders = of some dangerous implications of Ethanol use. History, reasons, politics will surface - all educational IMHO. George ( down under) A number of factors affect home building in general, and factory built = aircraft in particular. The thousands of folks who have paid good money = to hold an STC for auto fuel find their investment null and void unless = they can find a legal way to substitute "O" rings seals and gaskets that = will swell up and fail when exposed to alcohol in the fuel. How this = affects resale price is another factor. Do you wink at the new owner and = say all of the fuel system is alcohol compatible, don't worry about it. = Or do the right thing and get permission to make the needed changes when = there may only be 3 FAA people left who will actually sign it off as = legal?=20 If you are flying a home built that you did not build, have you = investigated the possibility that the fuel system has been decomposing = from prior use of auto fuel, even though you only use 100LL? If you built the plane you have now, do you know for a fact that the = fuel system is 100% compatible with alcohol? Keeping in mind that some = fuel tank sealants from years back were not compatible with alcohol. Many epoxies used in aircraft construction (foam moldless = construction) are not at all compatible with alcohol. I discovered that some fuel cell foams are not compatible with = alcohol. You can tell this by the orange snot plugging the fuel filters. = Then there is the long down time while the bladders are removed and = scrubbed out with soap and water. Where the wet wing is assembled with epoxy it becomes critical to = protect the epoxy from alcohol.=20 In metal wet wing planes the type of sealant used to form the tanks is = critcal. You may never use auto fuel in it, but the idiot, you loan it = to may well have. If the line boys misfuel one aircraft a week with = jetA, how hard would it be to dump in a load of auto fuel? Not as hard = as jet A.=20 Half way to Cashpoor Montana you look at the wing root sight gage and = it is snow white. What could that be ??????? The sad part of all of this is that the government made the choice for = you. And that choice depends on where you live. Most locations need = alcohol in the winter. Other places, winter and summer. Other places = neither winter or summer. This is to say nothing about the reduced = performance of the alcohol containing fuel vice the uncontaminated auto = fuel. Less energy. Less range, lower power output. Collects and holds = more water. Pieces corrode that had not in the past been a problem. It affects us because the rotary runs better on lower octane fuel, = rather than higher octane fuel. A lot of folks can afford $3.60 car gas = that cannot afford $6.70 100LL. So, in general there is less flying = going on, and that is bad news for us, for kids who had the aviation = bug, and for the future of America. =20 Lynn E. Hanover Not to single out Ben, but what does the politics of corn/ethanol = production=20 have to do with rotary engines in aircraft? Can we please stop this? Maybe get back to the original point of what impact have those of you=20 currently flying using mogas with ethanol noticed? Ethanol use in = aircraft=20 is one of those sacred donts (kinda like using car engines in = airplanes).=20 What I want to know is how applicable is this aviation folklore to = those of=20 us flying rotaries in day VFR airplanes? I dont recall seeing scores = of cars=20 pulled over on the shoulder of the road with failures directly = attributable=20 to ethanol use. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C8FF75.0E51D680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Lynn & Mike,
From my perspective - alcohol is here = to stay,=20 100LL won't be around for long (so I'm told). Bottom line, we need = to adapt=20 to those changes. To do so we need to discuss issues, share = information and=20 educate builders of some dangerous implications of Ethanol=20 use.
History, reasons, politics will surface = - all=20 educational IMHO.
George ( down under)
A number of factors affect home building in general, and factory = built=20 aircraft in particular. The thousands of folks who have paid good = money to=20 hold an STC for auto fuel find their investment null and void unless = they can=20 find a legal way to substitute "O" rings seals and gaskets that will = swell up=20 and fail when exposed to alcohol in the fuel. How this affects resale = price is=20 another factor. Do you wink at the new owner and say all of the fuel = system is=20 alcohol compatible, don't worry about it. Or do the right thing and = get=20 permission to make the needed changes when there may only be 3 FAA = people left=20 who will actually sign it off as legal? 
 
If you are flying a home built that you did not build, have you=20 investigated the possibility that the fuel system has been decomposing = from=20 prior use of auto fuel, even though you only use 100LL?
 
If you built the plane you have now, do you know for a fact that = the fuel=20 system is 100% compatible with alcohol? Keeping in mind that some fuel = tank=20 sealants from years back were not compatible with alcohol.
 
Many epoxies used in aircraft construction (foam moldless = construction)=20 are not at all compatible with alcohol.
I discovered that some fuel cell foams are not compatible with = alcohol.=20 You can tell this by the orange snot plugging the fuel = filters. Then=20 there is the long down time while the bladders are removed and = scrubbed out=20 with soap and water.
 
Where the wet wing is assembled with epoxy it becomes critical to = protect=20 the epoxy from alcohol. 
 
In metal wet wing planes the type of sealant used to form the = tanks is=20 critcal. You may never use auto fuel in it, but the idiot, you loan it = to may=20 well have. If the line boys misfuel one aircraft a week with jetA, how = hard=20 would it be to dump in a load of auto fuel? Not as hard as jet A. =
 
Half way to Cashpoor Montana you look at the wing root sight gage = and it=20 is snow white. What could that be ???????
 
The sad part of all of this is that the government made = the choice=20 for you. And that choice depends on where you live. Most locations = need=20 alcohol in the winter. Other places, winter and summer. Other = places=20 neither winter or summer. This is to say nothing about the = reduced=20 performance of the alcohol containing fuel vice the uncontaminated = auto fuel.=20 Less energy. Less range, lower power output. Collects and holds more=20 water.
Pieces corrode that had not in the past been a problem.
 
It affects us because the rotary runs better on lower octane = fuel,=20 rather  than higher octane fuel. A lot of folks can afford $3.60 = car gas=20 that cannot afford $6.70 100LL. So, in general there is less flying = going on,=20 and that is bad news for us, for kids who had the aviation bug, and = for the=20 future of America.  
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
 
 
Not to single out Ben, but what does the politics of corn/ethanol = production
have to do with rotary engines in aircraft? Can we = please stop=20 this?

Maybe get back to the original point of what impact have = those of=20 you
currently flying using mogas with ethanol noticed? Ethanol use = in=20 aircraft
is one of those sacred donts (kinda like using car = engines in=20 airplanes).
What I want to know is how applicable is this aviation = folklore to those of
us flying rotaries in day VFR airplanes? I = dont=20 recall seeing scores of cars
pulled over on the shoulder of the = road with=20 failures directly attributable
to ethanol use.

Mike = Wills
RV-4=20 N144MW

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