X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3072772 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:41:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.92.175; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so357589uge.7 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=sSUuxQ4WhMUHL2D/N7KRa9tvaY9majBtT5uca9/IIpo=; b=dN8llN8xeTPlwS2ludp21HgqTlzADpDtEPdriscq/umPjQt9VFJtXKyg0umvTCf90l BIHNGgWBwrJ4yl+wLjJlliUlvdGBig2HrUlcjIYfarZgCY6LWTAlwZYGitPG/4hGXvqd 2ISofdYEQ8lk9b4ij+NscGT6zfIFAA3c/x1Qs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=j77hhSwKMQ+QLPXej27QLK+3cqlO+RCCCEtsvWTP30vRN+EYkqiMHV/SJXRGIvQmC8 FERyp+emTRkS0TU7u49lRWzLG54EAhWVRsNT1CjoMQfF3Sq/hw67D2gL4tEQlCdGQii4 JqmMn5rVqVt8v9ft2Vb14Yo5Zvsjc85/90wBQ= Received: by 10.67.91.13 with SMTP id t13mr4133328ugl.11.1218548436613; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.102.19 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0808120640x5f01144ex72f90df3cd54bc5e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:40:36 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_52841_29571526.1218548436604" References: ------=_Part_52841_29571526.1218548436604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Chris, Sorry to hear of the bad news. Some of the Lancair builders used the Lancair factory wing jig during the factory builder's assist program and ended up with a twist in their wings. It turns out that the factory jig wa= s wrong (twisted). A number of them shipped their wings back to the factory, pried the skins off using heat guns and putty knives and then reassembled them using the new jig. Not a pleasant task, but they wanted it right and were not willing to accept anything else. I say this just to say that you're in good company and we're all cheering for you. Do what it takes to make it right. Mark On 8/12/08, Ed Anderson wrote: > > Gee, Chris, what kind of comment can be made about the kind of situation > =96 sort of makes your engine problems seem pale by comparison. Only thi= ng I > can think of is much better to find out now =96 on the ground =96 than la= ter in > the air. Not being a fiberglass guy, I can only say that I hope it is no= t > as bad as it looks. > > > > Looks like to me you are getting the right parties involved =96 hopefully= , > the fix will not be too extensive. Hope you have a better day tomorrow. > > > > Ed > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Christopher Barber > *Sent:* Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > > > Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day I > realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running bett= er > each day before this fuel issue developed. > > As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had > persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men > of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to > the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my > original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color > and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. > > I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard t= o > reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was > having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the f= uel > was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce > the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans > years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were > installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point see= med > a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same time = I > also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and > installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days. > > I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, I > still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel leak > though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er > go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in the > top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake > as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the outsi= de. > So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the le= ak. > > EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the > top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all > the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky an= d > not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had also > fallen off. > > I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue before= . > They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was there > too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a > complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I > mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appli= ed > at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake = is > a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate st= ep > and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal it > with more Jeffco. > > I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 > total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while > though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to fu= els > like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my > understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't tru= st > any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did > this part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the bucke= ts > was a bad batch. Donno. > > I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the > strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are fou= r > compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and thr= ee > on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). T= he > inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing > with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I > would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching m= y > ailerons after balancing them. > > > > So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the problem= I > thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when the fire > department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I pressure > tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. > > I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on a > few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory aske= d > me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a > isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a > bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blur= ry, > don't worry, it is only my tears...... > > > > The link to pictures is > http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569&posted=3D1#post2= 5569 > > All the best, > > Chris > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > ------=_Part_52841_29571526.1218548436604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Chris,
 
Sorry to hear of the bad news.  Some of the Lancair builders used= the Lancair factory wing jig during the factory builder's assist progr= am and ended up with a twist in their wings.  It turns out that the fa= ctory jig was wrong (twisted).  A number of them shipped their wi= ngs back to the factory, pried the skins off using heat guns and putty= knives and then reassembled them using the new jig.  Not a pleas= ant task, but they wanted it right and were not willing to accept anything = else.  I say this just to say that you're in good company and we&#= 39;re all cheering for you.  Do what it takes to make it right.  =
 
Mark

 
On 8/12/08, = Ed Anderson <eanderson@= carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Gee, Chris, what kind of comment ca= n be made about the kind of situation =96 sort of makes your engine problem= s seem pale by comparison.  Only thing I can think of is much better t= o find out now =96 on the ground =96 than later in the air.  Not being= a fiberglass guy, I can only say that I hope it is not as bad as it looks.=  

 

Looks like to me you are getting th= e right parties involved =96 hopefully, the fix will not be too extensive.&= nbsp; Hope you have a better day tomorrow.

 

Ed

 

 

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, August 11, 20= 08 10:29 PM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes = the day I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was runn= ing better each day before this fuel issue developed.

As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had = persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine me= n of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my o= riginal clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color an= d became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked.

I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard= to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was = having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fue= l was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plan= s years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were in= stalled with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed = a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the sa= me time I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above = and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days= .

I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only,= I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel lea= k though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in th= e top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the out= side. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure th= e leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on th= e top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky = and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had al= so fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue befo= re. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was ther= e too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appl= ied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strak= e is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate= step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you sea= l it with more Jeffco.

I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (abou= t 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long whi= le though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to f= uels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my underst= anding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't trust an= y of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did this= part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the buckets was= a bad batch. Donno.

I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are four = compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and three= on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). Th= e inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing = with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I w= ould much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching my a= ilerons after balancing them.

 

So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been t= he problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when t= he fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen.  When I = pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on= a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory ask= ed me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a = isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a bi= gger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blurry, = don't worry, it is only my tears......

 

http://www.eset.com<= /p>


------=_Part_52841_29571526.1218548436604--