X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.44.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3014529 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:21:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.44.29; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so460315yxj.7 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:21:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=oisxUOTMfHzMjvLlC7nTkRSM0xGSNOWhr67wsvgRt8E=; b=rHPPpw2An6u5dfhpX+GrXMM34/iHd7pF801r4+GVzSBo/RXr6lV1XC7M51DK91o8gi vQNvWXGD7hWbztDudGS6XyRSmrSULAvYOAwp96nfsffJTGZCV72YCtarkVQtCFu/5+QF z3aeFlWg4JdMv/0dmWjKF1tHTFAe4tmSAfFOU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=DVjP0RexK/g0Xl/0Tcgyuj5/LDbieUoPF4zZkUH346e8mn/uudovTVlRVNEbhSV1yR 6rdQbYOrNHvIYHpYOb4GfXzwxTVLSp7wAH6nvTpt3CLh89mIcMYYuBuZeD+dOc7ryr4a U48Awc/hUdQ21vWg2uTxEBkORQCZ1VE2NTwg4= Received: by 10.151.156.15 with SMTP id i15mr8087167ybo.162.1215433263804; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.185.7 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 05:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0807070521y3b0d4256of9096c6fbde7374c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:21:03 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Saga info and questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_27606_28690984.1215433263806" References: ------=_Part_27606_28690984.1215433263806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Chris, Sounds like you're getting closer... step by step. I concur with Ed's advice to keep your idle at or above 1600 rpm. For our application, there's no advantage to idle at 1200. While you're doing your extensive ground runs in the hot Texas sun, you may want to consider installing a water spray bar using a windshield washer pump to spray a little water onto the radiator. That will give you some control over the water temps. You may even want to keep it just in case you overheat on first flight. Cheap insurance. If you are accepting visitors, I would like to fly down and see your project some weekend. Send me directions off line if this is ok. Mark S. On 7/6/08, Christopher Barber wrote: > > I was out at the hangar again this afternoon. The engine is starting > "all but" really easy. What I mean is it is starting within a couple of > blades but I still have some issues. I think one (or perhaps both) of my > batteries is not being charged by its respective alternator (Aeroelectric > Z-14 drawing). I am getting the volt reading on the EM2 flashing most of > the time. I do not yet know why it sometimes does and sometimes does not. > One more thing to track down. I should be able to start the troubleshooting > in the next couple of days. I gotta educate myself on proper diagnostic > skills in this area. Again, until I actually come across the issue it is > only philosophical and I have to get up to speed. > > I know I have some other electrical issues. The other day when I shut the > primaries down at a higher RPM the engine stayed running on the secondary's > (or so I suppose), However, when I did so today the engine started to die. I > am also have my master and aux battery c/b still popping (but I have not had > time to really look at this yet). The engine runs but I gotta find the > reason. > > Based on Ed's comment the other day I went ahead and cut into my new coil > harness and provided independent power for the leading coils and a separate > line for the trailing coils. I had wanted to do this before, but had not > done so until Ed's words screamed in my head. Now either set of coils keep > the engine alive. I get a very slight rpm drop when on either set of coils > and this is what I think should have been expected. Thanks Ed. > > I am getting some missing but I think this is getting better as I get the > mixtures tuned more properly. I have been able to get idle as low as about > 1200 rpm, even though it is pretty rough. This engine has a medium street > port and it seems I remember reading that at this port level low end idle > may suffer. Maybe it is only a more extreme port but at 1200 it is > moderately rough. I have to be careful as to basing too much on engine > sound since as I move around the plane the sound changes. I think part of > this is a popping I get at certain angles due to exhaust against the prop. > I think this because as I move my head from one position to another the tone > changes. So, if I just hold my head (and tongue) just right, it sounds much > better. I will need to learn to rely on the ME, I suppose > > The engine seems to like to idle better as I bring the rpm up to 1400, > 1500, 1550 and 1600 rpm it. I read in the achieves in the last few days, > IIRC, that Tracy and Ed Idle at 1600. At 1600 rpm the plane will stay put > without braking or chocks. If I bring it up to 2000 rpm it really starts to > move. Oh, did I mention I have taxied around a bit? . > > I do not seem to be getting Auto tune to function correctly. I enter the > auto tune mode and I get a lot of tall bars jumping around, but I do not > really notice any difference in the way the engine is running. I am > guessin'/hopin' I need to do more manual tuning first. I am not confidant > in my knowledge on how to read the tracking mode or auto tune mode yet. It > does make better sense as I "play" with it more (with the manuals in one > hand and knobs/throttle in the other ). I am not sure of how to actually > tell it is in the actual auto tune mode as the graphs seem to change, but > maybe they would have anyway. The difference between genius and > ignorance?????? Genius has its limits . I am becoming more comfortable > with the EM and ECU even though I wish Tracy would include the coolant and > oil temperature in tracking/auto tune mode so I would know when I am hitting > my limits. I had a brief issue when my temps shot up to about 240 for > several seconds when I went WOT and then came out of auto tune mode. > > Finally for tonight anyway, when I did go to WOT, I got to about 5500 rpm > and my RPM reading on the EM2 went blank. I throttled back a bit and the > rpm readings went all over the place. I throttled back a bit more and the > readings returned to normal. This happened with my old engine as well but > the engine went belly up before I found the problem. I guess I will have to > check wires again, but I have literally checked the wires (and replaced a > few) at least 20 times. I cannot stay at these rpm's very long at all as it > is very hot and humid in Houston in July. It is usually somewhere between > 90 and 97 in the afternoon when I am out at the hangar. SO I AM ASSUMING > THAT my temps are not all that bad considering the high heat on a stationary > bird.......PLEASE correct me where I am wrong. What should I be seeing. I > wish there was a truly one stop source for all this basic stuff, temp, > expected rpm under certain conditions. I seem to have seen it all at one > time, but still find myself hunting for it online and/or in Tracy's > material. > > I still feel like progress is being made and most of this is pains of > success. Yeah, that's it ;-) > > Thanks again. > > All the best, > > Chris > ------=_Part_27606_28690984.1215433263806 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Chris,
 
Sounds like you're getting closer... step by step.  I concur = with Ed's advice to keep your idle at or above 1600 rpm.  For our = application, there's no advantage to idle at 1200.
 
While you're doing your extensive ground runs in the hot Texas sun= , you may want to consider installing a water spray bar using a windshield = washer pump to spray a little water onto the radiator.  That will give= you some control over the water temps.  You may even want to keep it = just in case you overheat on first flight.  Cheap insurance.
 
If you are accepting visitors, I would like to fly down and see your p= roject some weekend.  Send me directions off line if this is ok.
 
Mark S.

 
On 7/6/08, C= hristopher Barber <CBar= ber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
I was out at the hangar again this aft= ernoon.  The engine is starting "all but" really easy. = What I mean is it is starting within a couple of blades but I still have s= ome issues.  I think one (or perhaps both) of my batteries is not bein= g charged by its respective alternator (Aeroelectric Z-14 drawing).  I= am getting the volt reading on the EM2 flashing most of the time.  I = do not yet know why it sometimes does and sometimes does not.  One mor= e thing to track down.  I should be able to start the troubleshooting = in the next couple of days.  I gotta educate myself on proper diagnost= ic skills in this area.  Again, until I actually come across the = issue it is only philosophical and I have to get up to speed.
 
I know I have some other electrical is= sues.  The other day when I shut the primaries down at a higher RPM th= e engine stayed running on the secondary's (or so I suppose), However, = when I did so today the engine started to die. I am also have my maste= r and aux battery c/b still popping (but I have not had time to really= look at this yet). The engine runs but I gotta find the reason.
 
Based on Ed's comment the other da= y I went ahead and cut into my new coil harness and provided independent po= wer for the leading coils and a separate line for the trailing coils. = I had wanted to do this before, but had not done so until Ed's words s= creamed in my head.  Now either set of coils keep the engine alive.&nb= sp; I get a very slight rpm drop when on either set of coils and this is wh= at I think should have been expected.  Thanks Ed.
 
I am getting some missing but I think = this is getting better as I get the mixtures tuned more properly.  I h= ave been able to get idle as low as about 1200 rpm, even though it is prett= y rough.  This engine has a medium street port and it seems I remember= reading that at this port level low end idle may suffer.  Maybe it is= only a more extreme port but at 1200 it is moderately rough.  I have = to be careful as to basing too much on engine sound since as I move around = the plane the sound changes.  I think part of this is a popping I get = at certain angles due to exhaust against the prop.  I think this becau= se as I move my head from one position to another the tone changes.  S= o, if I just hold my head (and tongue) just right, it sounds much better.&n= bsp; I will need to learn to rely on the ME, I suppose
 
The engine seems to like to idle bette= r as I bring the rpm up to 1400, 1500, 1550 and 1600 rpm it. I read in the = achieves in the last few days, IIRC, that Tracy and Ed Idle at 1600.  = At 1600 rpm the plane will stay put without braking or chocks.  If I b= ring it up to 2000 rpm it really starts to move.  Oh, did I mention I = have taxied around a bit? <yea>.
 
I do not seem to be getting Auto tune = to function correctly.  I enter the auto tune mode and I get a lot of = tall bars jumping around, but I do not really notice any difference in the = way the engine is running. I am guessin'/hopin' I need to do more m= anual tuning first.  I am not confidant in my knowledge on how to read= the tracking mode or auto tune mode yet.  It does make better sense a= s I "play" with it more (with the manuals in one hand and knobs/t= hrottle in the other <g>).  I am not sure of how to actually tel= l it is in the actual auto tune mode as the graphs seem to change, but mayb= e they would have anyway.  The difference between genius and ignorance= ?????? Genius has its limits <g>.  I am becoming more comfortabl= e with the EM and ECU even though I wish Tracy would include the coolant an= d oil temperature in tracking/auto tune mode so I would know when I am hitt= ing my limits.  I had a brief issue when my temps shot up to about 240= for several seconds when I went WOT and then came out of auto tune mode.
 
Finally for tonight anyway, when I did= go to WOT, I got to about 5500 rpm and my RPM reading on the EM2 went blan= k.  I throttled back a bit and the rpm readings went all over the plac= e.  I throttled back a bit more and the readings returned to normal. T= his happened with my old engine as well but the engine went belly up before= I found the problem.  I guess I will have to check wires again, but I= have literally checked the wires (and replaced a few) at least 20 times.&n= bsp; I cannot stay at these rpm's very long at all as it is very hot an= d humid in Houston in July.  It is usually somewhere between 90 and 97= in the afternoon when I am out at the hangar.  SO I AM ASSUMING THAT = my temps are not all that bad considering the high heat on a stationary bir= d.......PLEASE correct me where I am wrong.  What should I be seeing.&= nbsp; I wish there was a truly one stop source for all this basic stuff, te= mp, expected rpm under certain conditions.  I seem to have seen it all= at one time, but still find myself hunting for it online and/or in Tracy&#= 39;s material.
 
I still feel like progress is being ma= de and most of this is pains of success. Yeah, that's it ;-)
 
Thanks again.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
<= /div>
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