X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3014283 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:04:29 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080707040349.CIXX28780.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 00:03:49 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id ms3o1Z00F1CvZmk04s3pW1; Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: <004d01c8dfe6$75891790$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Saga info and questions Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:03:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C8DFAB.C8DB8350" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C8DFAB.C8DB8350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Just one comment - in my limited experience (i.e. my RV-4) what appears = on the surface to be rough running of the engine at low idle is actually = gearbox chatter due to lash in the gears. Sounds terrible in the = airplane but standing outside while somebody else is running the engine = it is clear that even at very low idle settings the engine is running = well. As a consequence I've been running mine no lower than about = 1500RPM. I've finally got the engine start figured out. Starts by the third = blade and runs rough for about 10 seconds while I back the mixture off, = then smooths out nicely. I felt pretty superior today watching a Bonanza = struggle for 15 minutes with a hot start. Mine was hot too after a long = high powered run. Jumped back in, pushed the start button, start on the = third blade, and taxied away while he continued grinding on the starter. = :-) Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:44 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Saga info and questions I was out at the hangar again this afternoon. The engine is starting = "all but" really easy. What I mean is it is starting within a couple of = blades but I still have some issues. I think one (or perhaps both) of = my batteries is not being charged by its respective alternator = (Aeroelectric Z-14 drawing). I am getting the volt reading on the EM2 = flashing most of the time. I do not yet know why it sometimes does and = sometimes does not. One more thing to track down. I should be able to = start the troubleshooting in the next couple of days. I gotta educate = myself on proper diagnostic skills in this area. Again, until I = actually come across the issue it is only philosophical and I have to = get up to speed. I know I have some other electrical issues. The other day when I shut = the primaries down at a higher RPM the engine stayed running on the = secondary's (or so I suppose), However, when I did so today the engine = started to die. I am also have my master and aux battery c/b still = popping (but I have not had time to really look at this yet). The engine = runs but I gotta find the reason. Based on Ed's comment the other day I went ahead and cut into my new = coil harness and provided independent power for the leading coils and a = separate line for the trailing coils. I had wanted to do this before, = but had not done so until Ed's words screamed in my head. Now either = set of coils keep the engine alive. I get a very slight rpm drop when = on either set of coils and this is what I think should have been = expected. Thanks Ed. I am getting some missing but I think this is getting better as I get = the mixtures tuned more properly. I have been able to get idle as low = as about 1200 rpm, even though it is pretty rough. This engine has a = medium street port and it seems I remember reading that at this port = level low end idle may suffer. Maybe it is only a more extreme port but = at 1200 it is moderately rough. I have to be careful as to basing too = much on engine sound since as I move around the plane the sound changes. = I think part of this is a popping I get at certain angles due to = exhaust against the prop. I think this because as I move my head from = one position to another the tone changes. So, if I just hold my head = (and tongue) just right, it sounds much better. I will need to learn to = rely on the ME, I suppose The engine seems to like to idle better as I bring the rpm up to 1400, = 1500, 1550 and 1600 rpm it. I read in the achieves in the last few days, = IIRC, that Tracy and Ed Idle at 1600. At 1600 rpm the plane will stay = put without braking or chocks. If I bring it up to 2000 rpm it really = starts to move. Oh, did I mention I have taxied around a bit? . I do not seem to be getting Auto tune to function correctly. I enter = the auto tune mode and I get a lot of tall bars jumping around, but I do = not really notice any difference in the way the engine is running. I am = guessin'/hopin' I need to do more manual tuning first. I am not = confidant in my knowledge on how to read the tracking mode or auto tune = mode yet. It does make better sense as I "play" with it more (with the = manuals in one hand and knobs/throttle in the other ). I am not sure = of how to actually tell it is in the actual auto tune mode as the graphs = seem to change, but maybe they would have anyway. The difference = between genius and ignorance?????? Genius has its limits . I am = becoming more comfortable with the EM and ECU even though I wish Tracy = would include the coolant and oil temperature in tracking/auto tune mode = so I would know when I am hitting my limits. I had a brief issue when = my temps shot up to about 240 for several seconds when I went WOT and = then came out of auto tune mode. Finally for tonight anyway, when I did go to WOT, I got to about 5500 = rpm and my RPM reading on the EM2 went blank. I throttled back a bit = and the rpm readings went all over the place. I throttled back a bit = more and the readings returned to normal. This happened with my old = engine as well but the engine went belly up before I found the problem. = I guess I will have to check wires again, but I have literally checked = the wires (and replaced a few) at least 20 times. I cannot stay at = these rpm's very long at all as it is very hot and humid in Houston in = July. It is usually somewhere between 90 and 97 in the afternoon when I = am out at the hangar. SO I AM ASSUMING THAT my temps are not all that = bad considering the high heat on a stationary bird.......PLEASE correct = me where I am wrong. What should I be seeing. I wish there was a truly = one stop source for all this basic stuff, temp, expected rpm under = certain conditions. I seem to have seen it all at one time, but still = find myself hunting for it online and/or in Tracy's material. I still feel like progress is being made and most of this is pains of = success. Yeah, that's it ;-) Thanks again. All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C8DFAB.C8DB8350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
 Just one comment - in my limited = experience=20 (i.e. my RV-4) what appears on the surface to be rough running of the = engine at=20 low idle is actually gearbox chatter due to lash in the gears. Sounds = terrible=20 in the airplane but standing outside while somebody else is running the=20 engine it is clear that even at very low idle settings the engine = is=20 running well. As a consequence I've been running mine no lower than = about=20 1500RPM.
 
 I've finally got the engine start = figured=20 out. Starts by the third blade and runs rough for about 10 seconds while = I back=20 the mixture off, then smooths out nicely. I felt pretty superior today = watching=20 a Bonanza struggle for 15 minutes with a hot start. Mine was hot too = after a=20 long high powered run. Jumped back in, pushed the start button, start on = the=20 third blade, and taxied away while he continued grinding on the starter. = :-)
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Barber =
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 = 8:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Saga info = and=20 questions

I was out at the hangar again this=20 afternoon.  The engine is starting "all but" really easy.  = What I=20 mean is it is starting within a couple of blades but I still have some = issues.  I think one (or perhaps both) of my batteries is not = being=20 charged by its respective alternator (Aeroelectric Z-14 = drawing).  I am=20 getting the volt reading on the EM2 flashing most of the time.  I = do not=20 yet know why it sometimes does and sometimes does not.  One more = thing to=20 track down.  I should be able to start the troubleshooting in the = next=20 couple of days.  I gotta educate myself on proper diagnostic = skills in=20 this area.  Again, until I actually come across the issue = it is=20 only philosophical and I have to get up to speed.
 
I know I have some other electrical = issues. =20 The other day when I shut the primaries down at a higher RPM the = engine stayed=20 running on the secondary's (or so I suppose), However, when I did so = today the=20 engine started to die. I am also have my master and aux battery = c/b still=20 popping (but I have not had time to really look at this yet). The = engine=20 runs but I gotta find the reason.
 
Based on Ed's comment the other day I = went ahead=20 and cut into my new coil harness and provided independent power for = the=20 leading coils and a separate line for the trailing coils.  I had = wanted=20 to do this before, but had not done so until Ed's words screamed in my = head.  Now either set of coils keep the engine alive.  I get = a very=20 slight rpm drop when on either set of coils and this is what I think = should=20 have been expected.  Thanks Ed.
 
I am getting some missing but I think = this is=20 getting better as I get the mixtures tuned more properly.  I have = been=20 able to get idle as low as about 1200 rpm, even though it is pretty=20 rough.  This engine has a medium street port and it seems I = remember=20 reading that at this port level low end idle may suffer.  Maybe = it is=20 only a more extreme port but at 1200 it is moderately rough.  I = have to=20 be careful as to basing too much on engine sound since as I move = around the=20 plane the sound changes.  I think part of this is a popping I get = at=20 certain angles due to exhaust against the prop.  I think this = because as=20 I move my head from one position to another the tone changes.  = So, if I=20 just hold my head (and tongue) just right, it sounds much = better.  I will=20 need to learn to rely on the ME, I suppose
 
The engine seems to like to idle = better as I=20 bring the rpm up to 1400, 1500, 1550 and 1600 rpm it. I read in the = achieves=20 in the last few days, IIRC, that Tracy and Ed Idle at 1600.  At = 1600 rpm=20 the plane will stay put without braking or chocks.  If I bring it = up to=20 2000 rpm it really starts to move.  Oh, did I mention I have = taxied=20 around a bit? <yea>.
 
I do not seem to be getting Auto tune = to function=20 correctly.  I enter the auto tune mode and I get a lot of tall = bars=20 jumping around, but I do not really notice any difference in the way = the=20 engine is running. I am guessin'/hopin' I need to do more manual = tuning=20 first.  I am not confidant in my knowledge on how to read the = tracking=20 mode or auto tune mode yet.  It does make better sense as I = "play" with=20 it more (with the manuals in one hand and knobs/throttle in the other=20 <g>).  I am not sure of how to actually tell it is in the = actual=20 auto tune mode as the graphs seem to change, but maybe they would have = anyway.  The difference between genius and ignorance?????? Genius = has its=20 limits <g>.  I am becoming more comfortable with the EM and = ECU=20 even though I wish Tracy would include the coolant and oil temperature = in=20 tracking/auto tune mode so I would know when I am hitting my = limits.  I=20 had a brief issue when my temps shot up to about 240 for several = seconds when=20 I went WOT and then came out of auto tune mode.
 
Finally for tonight anyway, when I = did go to WOT,=20 I got to about 5500 rpm and my RPM reading on the EM2 went = blank.  I=20 throttled back a bit and the rpm readings went all over the = place.  I=20 throttled back a bit more and the readings returned to normal. This = happened=20 with my old engine as well but the engine went belly up before I found = the=20 problem.  I guess I will have to check wires again, but I have = literally=20 checked the wires (and replaced a few) at least 20 times.  I = cannot stay=20 at these rpm's very long at all as it is very hot and humid in Houston = in=20 July.  It is usually somewhere between 90 and 97 in the afternoon = when I=20 am out at the hangar.  SO I AM ASSUMING THAT my temps are not all = that=20 bad considering the high heat on a stationary bird.......PLEASE = correct me=20 where I am wrong.  What should I be seeing.  I wish there = was a=20 truly one stop source for all this basic stuff, temp, expected rpm = under=20 certain conditions.  I seem to have seen it all at one time, but = still=20 find myself hunting for it online and/or in Tracy's = material.
 
I still feel like progress is being = made and most=20 of this is pains of success. Yeah, that's it ;-)
 
Thanks again.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
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