X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2977609 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:21:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080621042053.LEJP4466.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:20:53 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id gUM01Z0071CvZmk04UM24a; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:21:02 -0400 Message-ID: <007301c8d356$361875c0$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progress Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:21:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C8D31B.896F9C70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C8D31B.896F9C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I'm pretty sure it's not a burnt valve. :-) In the early tuning stages I was all over the engine with starting = fluid, soapy water, you name it, looking for vacuum leaks. Never found a = thing. Timing is set per Tracy's manual. Odd thing is the lack of consistency. Most of the time it runs great. I = think if there was a vacuum leak it would be more consistent. Acts to me like there is something just a little off in the tuning. Get = everything in just the right (wrong) condition and it sets up a = resonance. Most of the time this doesnt happen. Changing mixture kills = the resonance and its fine after that. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development progress I hate to say it Mike, but in a recip, that's a sure sign of a burnt = valve or a major vacuum leak. Maybe in this case, there's a leak in = your intake? A bad gasket or loose bolt could do it. Timing is a = possibility for sure. Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been fully = conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 RPM = range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. In my = case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at about = a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from high to = low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its moving around too much), and = the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to the lean stop. = Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little disconcerting = (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm taxiing away from the = crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is watching). For a while = I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing line (Dave Leonard's = suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll need to get this = figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if it happens on = short final. I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary staging = point. The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the area - = just advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it seems to = be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a big pop! = I'm told it's particularly impressive after dark! I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been tweaking = other little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready to = get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out = eventually. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress Chris,=20 As you've probably read from the archives surging is usually = caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio. What is your A/F reading = during the surging? =20 Mark S. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much = since I got it running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil = pressure as it should. It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 = etc. I hand propped the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through = the system fine....much onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for = certainty ;-). Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the = oil system evenly and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with = coolant temp. BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue = or an actual oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short = engine runs. Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I = happened across an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I = happened to have. I had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't = give it much thought until I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low = and behold, The problem was the sender. I am getting good pressure = reading now, along with coolant and oil temp. Yeah. I am surprised at = the temps as they seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + = degree Houston weather. I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it = (something I was not able to do with the old engine). It is somewhat = difficult, but seems to be getting easier as I continue to tweak things = (ie timing). I am trying to do the various tuning via Tracy's manual. = To be honest a lot of the information in the manual is seemingly = abstract until I actually get to the step and/or problem. So, tonight, = I got it to run, and it seems to run better, but...... I am having a surging problem. It seems intermittent, but it = just may be I have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as I = get use to it all. Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several = times now....it seems as if this is when the engine is near or at idle. = I have not had a chance to look into this as of yet. Also, I have = gotten a number of horrendously loud/powerful backfires. Not sure what = changes as the engine may have run fine. It backfires when attempting = to start. I wait a few minutes and it may then start. Gee, isn't = inconsistent crap fun I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but = have just started reading the 105 post on the topic. Seems our own Mr. = Slade had the same problem back in the day . Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in soon, = but I wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being made = (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this positive statement up) as the = Saga continues. All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C8D31B.896F9C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, I'm pretty sure it's not a burnt = valve.=20 :-)
 
In the early tuning stages I was all = over the=20 engine with starting fluid, soapy water, you name it, looking for vacuum = leaks.=20 Never found a thing. Timing is set per Tracy's manual.
 
Odd thing is the lack of consistency. = Most of the=20 time it runs great. I think if there was a vacuum leak it would be more=20 consistent.
 
Acts to me like there is something just = a little=20 off in the tuning. Get everything in just the right = (wrong) condition and=20 it sets up a resonance. Most of the time this doesnt = happen. Changing=20 mixture kills the resonance and its fine after that.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg=20 Ward
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 8:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

I hate to say it Mike, but in a recip, that's = a sure=20 sign of a burnt valve or a major vacuum leak.  Maybe in this = case,=20 there's a leak in your intake?  A bad gasket or loose bolt could = do=20 it.  Timing is a possibility for sure.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = Wills=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 8:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

I too still have intermittent = surging issues=20 that havent been fully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always = in the=20 2000 - 3000 RPM range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off = the=20 throttle. In my case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges=20 rhythmically at about a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, = MAP=20 varying from high to low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its = moving around=20 too much), and the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to = the=20 lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little=20 disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm = taxiing away=20 from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is watching). = For a=20 while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing line (Dave = Leonard's=20 suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll need to get = this=20 figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if it happens = on short=20 final.
 
I occasionally have a pretty good = backfire at=20 the secondary staging point. The operational solution seems to be to = not=20 linger in the area - just advance the throttle or retard it right on = through=20 and it seems to be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost = guarantees a big pop! I'm told it's particularly impressive after=20 dark!
 
I havent worked on the tuning in = months while=20 I've been tweaking other little issues in prep for my DAR = inspection. Just=20 about ready to get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less = figured out=20 eventually.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 7:06=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = The SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

Chris,

As you've probably read from the = archives=20 surging is usually caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio.  = What is=20 your A/F reading during the surging? 

Mark S.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, = Christopher Barber=20 <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
Well, to continue the saga, I = have not run=20 the new 13b much since I got it running a few weeks ago due to = the EM2=20 not showing oil pressure as it should.  It was giving me = erratic=20 readings like -1, -3 etc.  I hand propped the engine before = I ran=20 it and oil pumped through the system fine....much onto the = hangar=20 floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty ;-).  Also, = during my=20 short runs everything heated up in the oil system evenly and the = oil=20 temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant temp.  BUT, = since I=20 was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an actual oil = system=20 problem I was very cautious about my few short engine = runs.
 
Well, today while dreading the = idea of=20 dropping my pan, I happened across an extra oil pressure sender = (still=20 in the package) I happened to have.  I had seen it laying = around=20 for a while, but didn't give it much thought until I was = thinking about=20 dropping the pan. Low and behold, The problem was the = sender.  I am=20 getting good pressure reading now, along with coolant and oil = temp.=20 Yeah.  I am surprised at the temps as they seem to be = staying in=20 check considering the 95 + degree Houston weather.
 
I am able to start the engine, = shut it down=20 and restart it (something I was not able to do with the old=20 engine).  It is somewhat difficult, but seems to be getting = easier=20 as I continue to tweak things (ie timing).  I am trying to = do the=20 various tuning via Tracy's manual.  To be honest a  = lot of the=20 information in the manual is seemingly abstract until I actually = get to=20 the step and/or problem.  So, tonight, I got it to run, and = it=20 seems to run better, but......
 
I am having a surging = problem.  It=20 seems intermittent, but it just may be I have not been setting = the=20 throttle quite the same way as I get use to it all.  Also, = I have=20 had the coil C/B pop on me several times now....it seems as if = this is=20 when the engine is near or at idle.  I have not had a = chance to=20 look into this as of yet.  Also, I have gotten a number of=20 horrendously loud/powerful backfires.  Not sure what = changes as the=20 engine may have run fine.  It backfires when attempting to=20 start.  I wait a few minutes and it may then start.  = Gee,=20 isn't inconsistent crap fun <g>
 
I just did a search of the = archives on the=20 surging issue, but have just started reading the 105 post on the = topic.  Seems our own Mr. Slade had the same problem back = in the=20 day <g>.
 
Well, it is the middle of my = work week and=20 I gotta turn in soon, but I wanted to share that it seems as if = actual=20 progress is being made (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this = positive=20 statement up<g>) as the Saga continues.
 
All the best,
 
Chris

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