X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from WA4EHSOBE005.bigfish.com ([216.32.181.16] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPS id 2959710 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:22:48 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.32.181.16; envelope-from=Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com Received: from mail197-wa4-R.bigfish.com (10.8.14.254) by WA4EHSOBE005.bigfish.com (10.8.40.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.240.5; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:22:06 +0000 Received: from mail197-wa4 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail197-wa4-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270D010E8456 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:22:07 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VPS-45(zz542N1432Ra0dJ7efV1447R1805Mzzzz5a6ciz32i6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail197-wa4 (MessageSwitch) id 12130177253596_8080; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:22:05 +0000 (UCT) Received: from sec-fe1.aeroflex.com (sec-fe1.aeroflex.com [199.4.132.6]) by mail197-wa4.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF6AFC8054 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:22:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from EVS2.aeroflex.corp ([10.50.1.101]) by sec-fe1.aeroflex.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:22:02 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8CA33.CD7CC709" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam engines Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam engines Thread-Index: AcjI0PRv3hmpDuM/SN2/rT6Q20wyuwBYjQBQ References: From: "Schemmel, Grant" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2008 13:22:02.0547 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDD4B030:01C8CA33] Return-Path: Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8CA33.CD7CC709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the suggestions Bob. At this point I'm still in the learning process on steam generation, as I have an electrical engineering background, with electrician and mechanic experience thrown in, but none of it power generation related. Got some boning up to do on the whole subject before I even start the design effort. It sounds like you might have experience with this - got any suggestions as to some reading material? = Thanks = = Grant Schemmel ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bob Perkinson Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:01 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam engines = = Grant, It would depend on what the temp of the steam would be. At atmospheric pressure 212 deg. and increasing in temp as the pressure went up, you would have to remove the steam from the liquid to another pressure chamber to be able to add heat to the steam (dry steam). This probably would not be practical in this application. I am not sure what temp or pressure your steam generator is capable of, but if it is capable of temperature in the 500 deg range, the rotor would need cooling The rotor uses the oil system for cooling so I would guess that maintaining the side seals would be needed. Have you given any consideration as to what you would exhaust the steam into? An air cooled condenser wold need an extremely large area to cool the steam back into a liquid, where as a liquid cooled condenser would be preferred. At some point a boiler feed system would have to be developed to produce the pressure needed to deliver the water back to the boiler, I would give consideration to using the engines original cooling system to pre heat the boiler feed water, after it had gone through the exhaust condenser. I have attached a simple drawing of what my thoughts are on how the system might look. This system can become fairly complex if you want automatic controls to maintain engine speed and liquid levels, if you are just going to blow the steam away, all you have to do is feed the steam generator. = Bob -------------- Original message from "Schemmel, Grant" : -------------- = = = > Thanks Bob. = > = > Here's another question - do you think that the oil system for the apex seals = > would need to be maintained too? = > = > Grant = > = > = > -----Original Message----- = > From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Bob Perkinson = > Sent: Sat 6/7/2008 1:31 AM = > To: Rotary motors in aircraft = > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam engines = > = > With the lubricant emulsified in the water, the problem comes at the steam = > generating device, be it a fired boiler or a solar boiler, the lubricant will = > plate out on the steam generating surface. Insulate the transfer surface and = > building up to the point of reducing flow. Time to steam generator failure will = > b e inversely proportional to the temp of the steam and the flow. Any impurities = > will produce scale in steam generators, so the H2o needs to be pure, less than 3 = > micro MHOs. I would go with ceramic seals IMHO. = > = > Bob Perkinson = > -------------- Original message from "Lynn Hanover" : = > -------------- = > = > = > Steam engines use with contained (reused steam) use water based lubricants. No = > problem. = > = > Lynn E. Hanover = > = > = > = > Good point. I imagine you could use the ceramic apex seals, but their = > cost would make the whole thing more expensive than I would probably = > want to go. Do you think having the seals coated with a ceramic might = > work/stay on? = > = > Grant = > = > = > = > Notice: This e-mail is intended solely for use of the individual or entity to = > which it is addressed and may contain i nformation that is proprietary, = > privileged, company confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable = > law. If the reader is not the intended recipient or agent responsible for = > delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that = > any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly = > prohibited. If this communication has been transmitted from a U.S. location it = > may also contain data subject to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations = > or U.S. Export Administration Regulations and cannot be disseminated, = > distributed or copied to foreign nationals, residing in the U.S. or abroad, = > without the prior approval of the U.S. Department of State or appropriate export = > licensing authority. If you have received this communication in error, please = > notify the sender by reply e-mail or collect telephone call and delete or = > destroy a ll copies of this e-mail message, any physical copies made of this = > e-mail message and/or any file attachment(s). = > = > = > = Notice: This e-mail is intended solely for use of the individual or entity = to which it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, p= rivileged, company confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applica= ble law. If the reader is not the intended recipient or agent responsible f= or delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notifie= d that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is = strictly prohibited. If this communication has been transmitted from a U.S= . location it may also contain data subject to the International Traffic in= Arms Regulations or U.S. Export Administration Regulations and cannot be d= isseminated, distributed or copied to foreign nationals, residing in the U.= S. or abroad, without the prior approval of the U.S. Department of State or= appropriate export licensing authority. If you have received this communic= ation in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or collect telepho= ne call and delete or destroy all copies of this e-mail message, any physic= al copies made of this e-mail message and/or any file attachment(s). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8CA33.CD7CC709 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= !-- BEGIN WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
Thanks for the suggestions Bob.  At this poin= t I'm = still in the learning process on steam generation, as I have an electrical = engineering background, with electrician and mechanic experience thrown in,= but = none of it power generation related.  Got some boning up to do on the = whole = subject before I even start the design effort.  It sounds like you mig= ht = have experience with this - got any suggestions as to some reading = material?
 
Thanks
 
Grant Schemmel

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bob = Perkinson
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:01 PM
To: R= otary = motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam = engines

Grant,
It would depend on what the temp of the steam would be.  At = atmospheric pressure 212 deg. and increasing in temp as the pressure went= up, = you would have to remove the steam from the liquid to another pressure ch= amber = to be able to add heat  to the steam (dry steam).  This probabl= y = would not be practical in this application.  I am not sure what temp= or = pressure your steam generator is capable of, but if it is capable of = temperature in the 500 deg range, the rotor would need cooling&= nbsp; = The rotor uses the oil system for cooling so I would guess that maintaini= ng = the side seals would be needed.  Have you given any consideration as= to = what you would exhaust the steam into?  An air cooled condenser wold= need = an extremely large area to cool the steam back into a liquid, where as a = liquid cooled condenser would be preferred.  At some point a boiler = feed = system would have to be developed to produce the pressure needed to deliv= er = the water back to the boiler, I would give consideration to using the eng= ines = original cooling system to pre heat the boiler feed water, after it had g= one = through the exhaust condenser.  I have attached a simple drawing of = what = my thoughts are on how the system might look.  This system can becom= e = fairly complex if you want automatic controls to maintain engine speed an= d = liquid levels, if you are just going to blow the steam away, all you have= to = do is feed the steam generator.
 
Bob
-------------- = Original message from "Schemmel, Grant" <Grant.Schemmel@Aeroflex.com= >: = --------------


> Thanks Bob.
>
> Here's an= other = question - do you think that the oil system for the apex seals
>= = would need to be maintained too?
>
> Grant
>
&= gt; =
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in air= craft = on behalf of Bob Perkinson
> Sent: Sat 6/7/2008 1:31 AM
>= To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Steam engin= es =
>
> With the lubricant emulsified in the water, the probl= em = comes at the steam
> generating device, be it a fired boiler or = a = solar boiler, the lubricant will
> plate out on the steam genera= ting = surface. Insulate the transfer surface and
> building up to the = point = of reducing flow. Time to steam generator failure will
> b e = inversely proportional to the temp of the steam and the flow. Any impur= ities =
> will produce scale in steam generators, so the H2o needs to be= = pure, less than 3
> micro MHOs. I would go with ceramic seals IM= HO. =
>
> Bob Perkinson
> -------------- Original messag= e = from "Lynn Hanover" :
> --------------
= > =
>
> Steam engines use with contained (reused steam) use w= ater = based lubricants. No
> problem.
>
> Lynn E. Hanove= r =
>
>
>
> Good point. I imagine you could use= the = ceramic apex seals, but their
> cost would make the whole thing = more = expensive than I would probably
> want to go. Do you think havin= g the = seals coated with a ceramic might
> work/stay on?
>
&= gt; = Grant
>
>
>
> Notice: This e-mail is intend= ed = solely for use of the individual or entity to
> which it is addr= essed = and may contain i nformation that is proprietary,
> privileged, = company confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > = law. If the reader is not the intended recipient or agent responsible f= or =
> delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are here= by = notified that
> any dissemination, distribution or copying of th= is = communication is strictly
> prohibited. If this communication ha= s = been transmitted from a U.S. location it
> may also contain data= = subject to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations
> or U.= S. = Export Administration Regulations and cannot be disseminated,
> = distributed or copied to foreign nationals, residing in the U.S. or abr= oad, =
> without the prior approval of the U.S. Department of State or = appropriate export
> licensing authority. If you have received t= his = communication in error, please
> notify the sender by reply e-ma= il or = collect telephone call and delete or
> destroy a ll copies of th= is = e-mail message, any physical copies made of this
> e-mail messag= e = and/or any file attachment(s).
>
>
> =

N= otice: This e-mail is intended solely for use of the individual or entity t= o which it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, pr= ivileged, company confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicab= le law. If the reader is not the intended recipient or agent responsible fo= r delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified= that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is s= trictly prohibited. If this communication has been transmitted from a U.S.= location it may also contain data subject to the International Traffic in = Arms Regulations or U.S. Export Administration Regulations and cannot be di= sseminated, distributed or copied to foreign nationals, residing in the U.S= . or abroad, without the prior approval of the U.S. Department of State or = appropriate export licensing authority. If you have received this communica= tion in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or collect telephon= e call and delete or destroy all copies of this e-mail message, any physica= l copies made of this e-mail message and/or any file attachment(s). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8CA33.CD7CC709--