X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2959262 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Jun 2008 00:03:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.48; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.28]) by QMTA05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bfZ91Z0040cQ2SLA501d00; Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:03:11 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id bg2z1Z0090dkeQQ8W00000; Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:03:11 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=kxE1pei-UXsA:10 a=ZIPS66L65XoA:10 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=BPtOTNxMAAAA:8 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Rk6WayaleeQ7TbuKYdwA:9 a=lPw6KhcJCrShEtjvzfcA:7 a=G3L8-xNUHg3xNeeIusvuY5yGbEoA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=JqzK7hVu6n4A:10 a=rVno8PmYaIQSsQdQPBMA:9 a=d6xAOxnhJNV5sXz7bQIA:7 a=E-oFZ8lx4iENPycJZ0FeNYDJZBkA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <061b01c8c9e6$af442940$8801a8c0@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:09:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0616_01C8C9AB.F9DA4100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0616_01C8C9AB.F9DA4100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's going into a Legacy RG with Aerochia's speed mods, and other = goodies. I anticipate approx. 400 hp at take-off. Take-off roll might = be a hair long, but once I get through 100-120 knots, watch = out......(:-) This is the first one (prop and aircraft configuration), = and that's the beauty of working with Craig, if I need to make changes, = it's no big deal. Try that with a CS prop......hee hee hee. Greg Ward; Lancair 20B in Progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:44 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. Say What? That is an un-godly amount of pitch! What airframe do you = have Greg? BTW I was just at Craigs house 2 weeks ago having some pitch taken out = of my previously 64x78" pitch prop. =20 I want to party with you dude! :-) --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net=20 On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Greg Ward = wrote: Hey Bill; It's a 76" prop, 130" pitch. Target rpm 310 mph@2456 rpm. Now you = know why I need a turbo. Lead time varies.=20 Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" = To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 3:07 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. That is a LOT of pitch! What are the dimensions of that prop? = How long was the lead time? Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 5:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. Shortly Bill, just got my prop from Craig Cato today, and want to = hang it, then take a bunch of pics. Enclosed is a little teaser from this = morning. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:36 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. Greg, Do you have any pictures anywhere of your install? Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs. A little off of the subject, but close. Just got my engine and = turbo mounted on the Lancair, and was wondering if anyone had ever = exited the 3" downpipe right out of the side of the cowling, ala turbine = exhaust types, (thrust???) it would eliminate 2 bends, and about 3' of pipe, = and with the turbo, it should be relatively quiet. Any thoughts? Greg Ward; Lancair Legacy RG 20B getting closer to startup....... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Muffler failed designs. Al, If you go through the archives, you'll find lots of examples = of failed muffler designs. Many by your's truly. I think I've = tried every concoction known to man and the Swiss. They all worked... = for a while. Actually, the many variations of the Swiss muffler I tried had = the best exhaust note by far. None lasted more than an hour, some = less than a few minutes. Heat wasn't so much the problem since I had = found many materials good to 2200F but none could stand the pounding. http://www.piteraq.dk/flight/muffler.html My best overall design (see attached) is a 2" tube, full of = holes inside a 5" tube. All made of 16ga SS, all welded together. = Needless to say, the flange is more like 3/16" - 1/4" SS. The inside end = of the 2" tube is welded to the end cap of the 5" tube. That blocks off the = one end of the 2" tube and secures it from movement. The exhaust end of the = 2" tube is welded through a 2" hole in the other 5" end cap. Rather than = drilling the 2" tube full of round holes, we cut slots with a saw. Then = take a big flat blade screwdriver, stick it in the slot and bend it over. = This creates an oblong hole. (Much easier than drilling into SS. This is = what will go on the Volmer. The sound is quite acceptable, it fits inside the cowl and Jim = M.'s version lasted the life of the aircraft... 600+ hours. Neil PS: Are you considering Rough River? -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Wick Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral Crash Analysis C'mon guys. You do this every time there's a crash. Instantly = go into rationalization mode. It's unhealthy. Greatly increases risk = builders won't take action. Increases risk you won't research it thoroughly. A healthy response would be:" Here's another example of how = our engines produce unusually destructive exhaust temperature and pulses. = We have a rich history of broken exhaust components. We need to be very = thorough when designing and building exhaust." I designed my own muffler. It had two inlets, two outlets. So = if (when) my muffler failed, it could never block both pipes. I also put = loose safety wire around my pipes, because on a pusher loosing pipe wipes = out prop. So basically, I assume stuff will fail, then design it to = control the way it fails. I've heard of rotary guys doing same type of thing. = This is a good time to share those key items. On your car, they deliberately design products to fail a = certain way. They will make a component weak, so it fails first. They do that = with wheels and hubs. So when the muffler fails, little pieces come apart, not = big sections? You guys do a great job of sharing successes, design and = construction details. This is another opportunity. -al wick ). = But, I serious doubt it will effect many who have researched the = rotary and come to understand its benefits - as for the rest, who cares {:>) I'm certain it was a relief to Mistral that the culprit was = not one of their engine components. Whew! a close one for sure. Hi Ed, Unfortunately, I bet the majority of people will only hear = "Mistral rotary", "lost power", and "crash" :-( Rusty (RV-3 taking forever.) ____________________________________________________________ Orlando Vacations - Click Here! = http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nK7u59LkagfZ5IcEgGqYcv= PRC wA85GgQITbFK9vE7wPGKFP/ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0616_01C8C9AB.F9DA4100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's going into a Legacy RG with Aerochia's = speed mods,=20 and other goodies.  I anticipate approx. 400 hp at take-off.  = Take-off=20 roll might be a hair long, but once I get through 100-120 knots, watch=20 out......(:-)  This is the first one (prop and aircraft = configuration), and=20 that's the beauty of working with Craig, if I need to make changes, it's = no big=20 deal.  Try that with a CS prop......hee hee hee.
Greg Ward;
Lancair 20B in Progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 = 8:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Muffler failed=20 designs.

Say What?  That is an un-godly amount of pitch!  What = airframe=20 do you have Greg?
 
BTW I was just at Craigs house 2 weeks ago having some pitch = taken out of=20 my previously 64x78" pitch prop. 
 
I want to party with you dude!  :-)
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net =

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Greg Ward = <gregw@onestopdesign.biz>=20 wrote:
Hey=20 Bill;
It's a 76" prop, 130" pitch.  Target rpm 310 mph@2456 = rpm.=20  Now you know why I need a turbo.  Lead time varies.=20

Greg

----- Original Message ----- = From: "Bill=20 Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sunday,=20 June 08, 2008 3:07 PM=20

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed=20 designs.


That is a LOT of pitch!  What are the = dimensions of=20 that prop?  How long was
the lead time?

Bill=20 B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of = Greg=20 Ward
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 5:09 PM
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed=20 designs.

Shortly Bill, just got my prop from Craig Cato = today,=20 and want to hang it,
then take a bunch of pics.  Enclosed = is a=20 little teaser from this morning.
Greg

----- Original = Message=20 -----
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:36 = AM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed designs.


Greg,
Do you have any pictures anywhere = of your=20 install?

Bill B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of = Greg=20 Ward
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:25 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffler failed = designs.

A=20 little off of the subject, but close.  Just got my engine = and=20 turbo
mounted on the Lancair, and was wondering if anyone had = ever=20 exited the 3"
downpipe right out of the side of the cowling, = ala=20 turbine exhaust types,
(thrust???)  it would eliminate 2 = bends,=20 and about 3' of pipe, and with
the
turbo, it should be = relatively=20 quiet.  Any thoughts?
Greg Ward;
Lancair Legacy RG = 20B=20 getting closer to startup.......

----- Original Message=20 -----
From: <neilak@sympatico.ca>
To: "Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Saturday,=20 June 07, 2008 4:08 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Muffler failed=20 designs.


Al,

If=20 you go through the archives, you'll find lots of examples = of
failed=20 muffler designs.  Many by your's truly.  I think = I've tried=20 every
concoction known to man and the Swiss.  They all = worked...  for a while.

Actually, the many = variations of=20 the Swiss muffler I tried had the
best exhaust note by far. =  None lasted more than an hour, some less = than
a
few=20 minutes.  Heat wasn't so much the problem since I had = found=20 many
materials good to 2200F but none could stand the=20 pounding.
http://www.piteraq.dk/flight/muffler.html

My=20 best overall design (see attached) is a 2" tube, full of=20 holes
inside a 5" tube.  All made of 16ga SS, all = welded=20 together.  Needless to
say, the flange is more like = 3/16" -=20 1/4" SS.  The inside end of the 2"
tube
is welded = to the=20 end cap of the 5" tube.  That blocks off the one end=20 of
the
2" tube and secures it from movement.  The = exhaust=20 end of the 2" tube is
welded through a 2" hole in the other = 5" end=20 cap.  Rather than drilling
the
2" tube full of = round holes,=20 we cut slots with a saw.  Then take a = big
flat
blade=20 screwdriver, stick it in the slot and bend it over.  This = creates
an
oblong hole.  (Much easier than drilling = into=20 SS.  This is what will go
on
the Volmer.

The = sound=20 is quite acceptable, it fits inside the cowl and Jim = M.'s
version=20 lasted the life of the aircraft... 600+ = hours.

Neil

PS:=20 Are you considering Rough River?



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf = Of Al=20 Wick
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:57 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral Crash=20 Analysis

C'mon guys. You do this every time there's a = crash.=20 Instantly go into
rationalization mode. It's unhealthy. = Greatly=20 increases risk builders
won't
take action. Increases = risk you=20 won't research it thoroughly.

A healthy response would = be:"=20 Here's another example of how our engines
produce unusually = destructive exhaust temperature and pulses. We have=20 a
rich

history of broken exhaust components. We need = to be=20 very thorough when
designing and building = exhaust."

I=20 designed my own muffler. It had two inlets, two outlets. So if = (when)
my
muffler failed, it could never block both = pipes. I=20 also put loose safety
wire around my pipes, because on a = pusher=20 loosing pipe wipes out prop. So
basically, I assume stuff = will=20  fail, then design it to control the way
it
fails. = I've=20 heard of rotary guys doing same type of thing. This is a = good
time=20 to share those key items.

On your car, they = deliberately design=20 products to fail a certain way.
They
will make a = component weak,=20 so it fails first. They do that with wheels
and
hubs. So = when=20 the muffler fails, little pieces come apart, not=20 big
sections?

You guys do a great job of sharing = successes,=20 design and construction
details. This is another=20 opportunity.

-al wick




<No doubt = you are=20 on the money, Rusty.  When folks are = already
predisposed
to=20 bad mouth the rotary - this will only be more ammunition. =  "See!=20 even
with umpteen million dollars you can't get one to fly" =  {:>).  But, I
serious doubt it will effect = many who=20 have researched the rotary and come
to

understand = its=20 benefits - as for the rest, who cares {:>)


 I'm=20 certain it was a relief to Mistral that the culprit was not = one=20 of
their engine components.



 Whew! a = close one=20 for sure.



 Hi=20 Ed,



 Unfortunately, I bet the majority of = people=20 will only hear "Mistral
rotary", "lost power", and "crash"=20  :-(



 Rusty (RV-3 taking=20 = forever.)

________________________________________________________= ____
Orlando=20 Vacations - Click = Here!


http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nK7u59= LkagfZ5IcEgGqYcvPRC
wA85GgQITbFK9vE7wPGKFP/

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