X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2922666 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 May 2008 23:37:12 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.80; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by QMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RerV1Z0020FhH24A804F00; Thu, 15 May 2008 03:36:34 +0000 Received: from ChristopherNB ([98.200.107.125]) by OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id RfcS1Z0062iMkLq8U00000; Thu, 15 May 2008 03:36:28 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=-1K-tPfzpB4A:10 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=WJ8idTmX0FQXpzN561kA:9 a=oB6UXq_AY8TgciJqAt4A:7 a=LjQRhhI9s34KnnaWnrCi_ZRlIGcA:4 a=5FtdkfQUxfIA:10 a=ZC6VJTpVGLjHZ9XjJicA:9 a=FDaiZa4IKDl12N-yIBkA:7 a=a8DVJN6QiVCae8leprkLXvYTFHkA:4 a=_KtGf5bnNxAA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <748EA8AD7BD44742B0B5EE83D916E1F7@ChristopherNB> From: "Christopher Barber" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Renewable Aviation Fuel Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:36:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1141_01C8B612.F1ED0C90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16545 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1141_01C8B612.F1ED0C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well put Monty. I have been running my Jetta TDI on biodiesel since the = day I purchased it new in Oct 2005. The MPG have gone up and if I keep = my lead foot to around 65 mph I am averaging 41 ish MPG in mixed = driving. I am not a "greeny" per say, I just think using my bioD is my way of = flippin' the bird to OPEC et al one tank at a time. I am hoping the bio fuels take off, so to speak. I hate the way it is = now All the best, Chris ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M Roberts=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:32 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Renewable Aviation Fuel Ernest....be not afraid! Rejoice! Sounds suspiciously like the Weizmann organism. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol There is no way that any patent on this gaslight era technology is = going to hold up to challenge. They may have bio engineered the bug to = be more productive, and are patenting that. Otherwise this is something you could do in your back yard with your = lawn clippings/sewage and the proper bug and enzymes. It's no different = than making wine. Then you just use fractional distillation to get the = fuel out. It may be possible to separate the constituents with a = molecular sieve which would be even better. The aviation fuel market is the perfect place to start something like = this, because it is small (relatively) and the oil companies don't = really want to be bothered with it. 100LL is going to go away soon and = something must take it's place. If it costs half as much as 100LL I = would gladly buy it. Since the states don't make much revenue from = Aviation Fuel, they won't perceive the threat. That will allow companies = in this market to move forward and eventually achieve economies of = scale. Then they can start to move into the automotive fuel market and = the cat is out of the bag.=20 Expecting the government and the oil companies to solve this problem = is asking two foxes to guard the henhouse.=20 I watched the hearings with the oil companies and congress on seaspan. = If you missed it, my executive summary is as follows: Government : We make more money per gallon than anybody. We won't let = you drill or build a new refinery. We want the rest of your profits. = We're here to help....honest we are, poor people, evil capitalist pig, = fairness, etc. (wink, wink, thanks for the campaign contribution). Oil Companies: We're making a killing, but you won't let us drill to = bring the cost down to the consumer, or spend billions on new = refineries. Woe is us, Woe is us. People should conserve. (wink wink, = keep up the good work).=20 Lots of noise and smoke........nothing changes. We continue to play the fool in this game. There are various algae and bacteria that can produce octane, and = diesel (lipids) directly. There are currently many efforts at bio = engineering them to be much more efficient. There are several companies = in the commercialization stages of this effort, and third gen fuels on = the way. 1 acre of soybeans can make about 20 barrels of bio-diesel = (first gen), but it requires prime farm land and good water that should = be used for food production. 1 acre of algae can produce 200 barrels of = bio-diesel, and it can do it on a superfund site with municipal effluent = (second gen). Third generation fuels are in the works.=20 Bio-tech has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years. In addition = the demand from China, India, Brazil, and the former Eastern Block is = making it impossible for OPEC to drive the price down. That has always = been the real secret weapon. There are many different ways to produce = liquid fuels. Coal to liquids, Gas to Liquids, Oil shale, Biological and = thermal processes. Every time somebody would start to do this, or if we = tried to increase domestic oil production, OPEC would flood the market = with cheap crude. Thereby preventing any competition and maintaining = OPEC's monopoly. That power is now gone. Perhaps we made the conscious = decision in the cold war to use up everybody else's oil while sitting on = ours...makes sense to me. Then the Greenies emerged or were created. = Regardless of what you or I personally think, bio based distributed = energy is on the way, whether the powers that be want it or not.=20 Just THINK!!! Al Gore could produce at least a couple of barrels a = week from verbal sewage alone. Whether you are a greenie or not, or whether there is oil in the = ground or not is beside the point. Companies, and countries can control something 2000 ft under ground. = Grass clippings, sewage, and bacteria are not so easily controlled. Even = if only half of our energy comes from these sources, it will force the = price of conventional petroleum products down worldwide and end the = monopoly of energy by the few. I'm sure the greenies will find something = to hate about this too. They can jump up and down and scream all they = want. It doesn't matter. You don't still believe the squished up dead dino juice fairytale do = you?? Peace Monty ------=_NextPart_000_1141_01C8B612.F1ED0C90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well put Monty.  I have been = running my Jetta=20 TDI on biodiesel since the day I purchased it new in Oct 2005.  The = MPG=20 have gone up and if I keep my lead foot to around 65 mph I am averaging = 41 ish=20 MPG in mixed driving.
 
I am not a "greeny" per say, I just = think using my=20 bioD is my way of flippin' the bird to OPEC et al one tank at a=20 time.
 
I am hoping the bio fuels take off, so = to=20 speak.  I hate the way it is now
 
All the best,
 
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 M=20 Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 = 10:32=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Renewable = Aviation=20 Fuel

Ernest....be not afraid!
 
Rejoice!
 
Sounds suspiciously like the Weizmann = organism.
 
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/= wiki/Biobutanol
 
There is no way that any patent on = this gaslight=20 era technology is going to hold up to challenge. They may have bio = engineered=20 the bug to be more productive, and are patenting that.
 
Otherwise this is something you could = do in your=20 back yard with your lawn clippings/sewage and the proper bug and = enzymes. It's=20 no different than making wine. Then you just use fractional = distillation to=20 get the fuel out. It may be possible to separate the constituents =  with a molecular sieve which would be even better.
 
The aviation fuel market is the = perfect place to=20 start something like this, because it is small (relatively) and the = oil=20 companies don't really want to be bothered with it. 100LL is going to = go away=20 soon and something must take it's place. If it costs half as much as = 100LL I=20 would gladly buy it. Since the states don't make much revenue from = Aviation=20 Fuel, they won't perceive the threat. That will allow companies in = this market=20 to move forward and eventually achieve economies of scale. Then they = can start=20 to move into the automotive fuel market and the cat is out = of the=20 bag.
 
Expecting the government and the oil = companies to=20 solve this problem is asking two foxes to guard the henhouse. =
 
I watched the hearings with the oil = companies and=20 congress on seaspan. If you missed it, my executive summary = is as=20 follows:
 
Government : We make more money per = gallon than=20 anybody. We won't let you drill or build a new refinery. We want the = rest of=20 your profits. We're here to help....honest we are, poor people, evil=20 capitalist pig, fairness, etc. (wink, wink, thanks for the = campaign=20 contribution).
 
Oil Companies: We're making a = killing, but you=20 won't let us drill to bring the cost down to the consumer, or spend = billions=20 on new refineries. Woe is us, Woe is us. People should = conserve. (wink=20 wink, keep up the good work).
 
Lots of noise and = smoke........nothing=20 changes.
 
We continue to play the fool in this=20 game.
 
There are various algae and bacteria = that can=20 produce octane, and diesel (lipids) directly. There are currently = many=20 efforts at bio engineering them to be much more efficient. There are = several=20 companies in the commercialization stages of this effort, and third = gen fuels=20 on the way. 1 acre of soybeans can make about 20 barrels of bio-diesel = (first=20 gen), but it requires prime farm land and good water that should be = used for=20 food production. 1 acre of algae can produce 200 barrels of = bio-diesel, and it=20 can do it on a superfund site with municipal effluent (second gen). = Third=20 generation fuels are in the works.
 
Bio-tech has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years. In = addition the=20 demand from China, India, Brazil, and the former Eastern Block is = making it=20 impossible for OPEC to drive the price down. That has always been the = real=20 secret weapon. There are many different ways to produce liquid fuels. = Coal to=20 liquids, Gas to Liquids, Oil shale, Biological and thermal processes. = Every=20 time somebody would start to do this, or if we tried to increase = domestic oil=20 production, OPEC would flood the market with cheap crude. Thereby = preventing=20 any competition and maintaining OPEC's monopoly. That power is = now=20 gone. Perhaps we made the conscious decision in the cold war to = use up=20 everybody else's oil while sitting on ours...makes sense to me. Then = the=20 Greenies emerged or were created.  Regardless of what you or = I=20 personally think, bio based = distributed energy=20 is on the way, whether the powers that be want it or not. =
 
Just THINK!!! Al Gore could produce = at least a=20 couple of barrels a week from verbal sewage = alone.
 
Whether you are a greenie or not, or = whether=20 there is oil in the ground or not is beside the point.
 
Companies, and countries can control = something=20 2000 ft under ground. Grass clippings, sewage, and bacteria are = not so=20 easily controlled. Even if only half of our energy comes from these = sources,=20 it will force the price of conventional petroleum products down = worldwide and=20 end the monopoly of energy by the few. I'm sure the greenies will find = something to hate about this too. They can jump up and down and scream = all=20 they want. It doesn't matter.
 
You don't still believe the = squished=20 up dead dino juice fairytale do you??
 
Peace
 
Monty
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