X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2843741 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:17:59 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.5; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.3.) id q.d20.27cf8024 (48600) for ; Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:17:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:18:40 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New material for bearings To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1207948720" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5132 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1207948720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When building spec engines, where all of the parts have to be stock and identifiable as such, it was common to work first on the ring package. The stock rings have huge tension, so as to still be working when half worn away at 150,000 miles. The oil scraper is especially bad, as it has two scraper rails or, is cast with two scrapers. In both cases the spring that controls pressure on the scrapers is defeated to the extent that very little pressure is left on the back of the scrapers. The second ring is turned orange with a propane torch and then collapsed around the second groove. So that it never touches anything. Not much drag there. The top ring is a . 010" oversized with a step on top of one end and the bottom of the other. So from the top it appeared to have no gap. That ring was overheated to red and pushed into the bore to cool. It did seal enough to get the job done. And had little drag. So, it sealed better than 2 rings, and had less drag than one. The second ring in most engines are tapered face oil scraper, and don't seal anything until the taper is worn off. The oil scraper could just do its job and had no detectable drag. Multiply the drag numbers times the stroke, times 4 times the number of cylinders times the RPM and a fair estimate of the power gain or loss is available. So a perfectly stock 1600CC VW single port engine rated at 40 HP can give you 60 HP. A perfectly stock 1600CC 60 HP Ford (71 Pinto) can give you 135 HP. The difference with a spring scale was less than one pound and little hysterises compared to 4 pounds and a ton of hysterises. When the piston stops at the top and bottom of the bore doesn't want to start moving again. And takes more to start it moving than to keep it moving. So the reduction of drag (friction) is a very big deal. The drag not generated not only ups the HP, it does it with little added heat. You need a spring scale or fish scale to see any difference. I don't think even an inch pound torque wrench will give you a fine enough reading. Or even hanging weights on a lever may be needed. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 4/11/2008 7:37:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, echristley@nc.rr.com writes: bmears9413@aol.com wrote: > Back in the old days of points, we would set the point by rotating the motor by pulling the ac belt, or rotating the alternator pulley. Not much drag on the box stock engines. > > > Can we put some guesstimated numbers on "not much"? Just a torque wrench turning the engine one revolution in one second without plugs or exhaust? If there isn't enough difference for this simple test to show, then I've wasted $30 and a few hours. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) -------------------------------1207948720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When building spec engines, where all of the parts have to be stock and= identifiable as such, it was common to work first on the ring package. The=20= stock rings have huge tension, so as to still be working when half worn away= at 150,000 miles. The oil scraper is especially bad, as it has two scraper=20= rails or, is cast with two scrapers. In both cases the spring that controls=20= pressure on the scrapers is defeated to the extent that very little pressure= is left on the back of the scrapers.
 
The second ring is turned orange with a propane torch and then collapse= d around the second groove. So that it never touches anything. Not much drag= there. The top ring is a . 010" oversized with a step on top of one end and= the bottom of the other. So from the top it appeared to have no gap. That r= ing was overheated to red and pushed into the bore to cool. It did seal enou= gh to get the job done. And had little drag. So, it sealed better than 2 rin= gs, and had less drag than one. The second ring in most engines are tapered=20= face oil scraper, and don't seal anything until the taper is worn off. The o= il scraper could just do its job and had no detectable drag.  Mult= iply the drag numbers times the stroke, times 4 times the number of cyl= inders times the RPM and a fair estimate of the power gain or loss is availa= ble. So a perfectly stock 1600CC VW single port engine rated at 40 HP can gi= ve you 60 HP. A perfectly stock 1600CC 60 HP Ford (71 Pinto) can give you 13= 5 HP.
 
The difference with a spring scale was less than one pound and little h= ysterises compared to 4 pounds and a ton of hysterises. When the piston stop= s at the top and bottom of the bore doesn't want to start moving a= gain. And takes more to start it moving than to keep it moving. So the reduc= tion of drag (friction) is a very big deal. The drag not generated not only=20= ups the HP, it does it with little added heat.
 
You need a spring scale or fish scale to see any difference. I don't th= ink even an inch pound torque wrench will give you a fine enough reading. Or= even hanging weights on a lever may be needed.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
In a message dated 4/11/2008 7:37:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, echristl= ey@nc.rr.com writes:
bmears9413@aol.com wrote:
> Back in the=20= old days of points, we would set the point by rotating the motor by pulling=20= the ac belt, or rotating the alternator pulley. Not much drag on the box sto= ck engines.
>
>
>  
Can we put some guesstim= ated numbers on "not much"?  Just a torque
wrench turning the engin= e one revolution in one second without plugs or
exhaust?  If there=20= isn't enough difference for this simple test to show,
then I've wasted $= 30 and a few hours.

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