X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.16] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2575082 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:37:01 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.16; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by QMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id P7L21Y00M0b6N640A08100; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:36:26 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id P8cR1Y00B0dkeQQ0800000; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:36:25 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=qtoWPDGkj3EA:10 a=v1hivseuAAAA:8 a=gBp4o9OiAAAA:8 a=-CCsd6mOAAAA:8 a=UnXP4LQMiZ0voBvZIUsA:9 a=Op-D8fSvkQ6bKp6qgLkA:7 a=Zl7_LqE0TnvtHWdPKCPOvlsF82kA:4 a=igkdSQrOE6AA:10 a=oxeu47W3yjnTWxWSqCAA:9 a=07271gE_2ywaC7ZH3K0A:7 a=h6X2FGgmLOliSFkJ3iAnEvyawBoA:4 a=ILCZio5HsAgA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <0ae601c83b6d$86dc2eb0$8801a8c0@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth injection Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:44:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0AE3_01C83B2A.785C01A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0AE3_01C83B2A.785C01A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First time inputting on this list, but this string is right up my alley. = Getting ready to start on a Velocity with rotary power. In 1982, I = took my RX-7 to SoCal, and had a turbo installed. They put in a = variable boost waste gate, and water injection, because they weren't = making intercoolers at the time, and detonation was an issue. The water = injection was very simple. As stated below, they used a windshield = washer tank (about 2 quarts), wired to a vacuum switch in the intake = manifold, and a light hose to the air filter, (Carter Series-C = 4-barrel), to a brass fitting with a small hole drilled in it. This = shot directly into the venturies. How they calculated the hole size I = don't know, but the water would last for a full tank of gas, with some = hard driving. At sea level, boost was minimal, and had to be watched = carefully. At altitude, in the Sierras, (Donner at 7,000 ft. Sherwin at = 11,000?), I would boost it higher, and the results were amazing, and I = put 30,000 miles on this before I sold it, with no problems. Exhaust = heat was a problem, but a few wisely place reflectors solved that = problem. Greg Ward ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben Baltrusaitis=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth = injection Thanks, Bill and Ed, I found it amazing what the Subaru dudes are doing with their street = engines! What is curious is the fact that common windshield washer fluid = was used for injection and the injection systems actually used the = windshield washer tank as the reservoir. They say they can get up to 4 = tanks of gas to one gallon of water/meth. I brought up the idea for the Rotary because of the hot exhaust = problems and for the fact that the apex seals cannot stand detonation. = This can be a good solution if progressive injection programming is = used. The EFI program needs to be adjusted to reduce fuel as water/meth = is added. The injection can be programmed to limit use by rpm or boost = level. Regards, Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Schertz=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: 12/06/2007 7:40 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth = injection Ben, Jack Morrison, at Aurora Airport is running methanol-water injection = in a supercharged IO-540 in an E-racer. It lowered his cylinder head and = EGT temperatures. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS (reserved) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth = injection Ben, here is a URL that gives a number of different ways to cool = the intake charge. You may find it interesting = http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D= 24 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben Baltrusaitis=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Water/Meth injection I have moved away from the Rotary (shame on me) and toward the = Subaru. I have been researching how to get more torque and found the = only way is with boost. The street Subaru guys are injecting water and = methanol to avoid detonation under high boost--getting 450 hp from 2.5 = liters. The methanol and water cool the charge while the methanol also = increases the octane. This allows them to run 89 or 91 octane fuel under = low boost w/o injection and have high octane-high boost with injection. = The injection is set to start at a certain boost pressure or rpm level. I am going to go this route in my aerobatic biplane so I can run = on cheap fuel in econo cruise and still not detonate while doing full = throttle aerobatics. One of the side benefits of this injection is lower EGTs--as = much as 400 degrees. Has anyone done any testing with water injection to = lower EGTs? Another benefit is much cleaner combustion chambers. That sounds = useful to me, too. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D937176 http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/home.php?cat=3D4559 Ben=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1173 - Release Date: = 12/5/2007 9:29 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0AE3_01C83B2A.785C01A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First time inputting on = this list,=20 but this string is right up my alley.  Getting ready to start on a = Velocity=20 with rotary power.  In 1982, I took my RX-7 to SoCal, and had a = turbo=20 installed.  They put in a variable boost waste gate, and water = injection,=20 because they weren't making intercoolers at the time, and detonation was = an=20 issue.  The water injection was very simple.  As stated below, = they=20 used a windshield washer tank (about 2 quarts), wired to a vacuum switch = in the=20 intake manifold, and a light hose to the air filter, (Carter Series-C = 4-barrel),=20 to a brass fitting with a small hole drilled in it.  This shot = directly=20 into the venturies.  How they calculated the hole size I don't = know, but=20 the water would last for a full tank of gas, with some hard = driving.  At=20 sea level, boost was minimal, and had to be watched carefully.  At=20 altitude, in the Sierras, (Donner at 7,000 ft. Sherwin at 11,000?), I = would=20 boost it higher, and the results were amazing, and I put 30,000 miles on = this=20 before I sold it, with no problems.  Exhaust heat was a problem, = but a few=20 wisely place reflectors solved that problem.
Greg Ward
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ben=20 Baltrusaitis
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 = 10:40=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Methods of=20 charge cooling was Water/Meth injection

Thanks, Bill and Ed,
I found it amazing what the Subaru dudes are doing with their = street=20 engines! What is curious is the fact that common windshield washer = fluid was=20 used for injection and the injection systems actually used the = windshield=20 washer tank as the reservoir. They say they can get up to 4 tanks of = gas to=20 one gallon of water/meth.
 
I brought up the idea for the Rotary because of the hot exhaust = problems=20 and for the fact that the apex seals cannot stand detonation. This can = be a=20 good solution if progressive injection programming is used. The EFI = program=20 needs to be adjusted to reduce fuel as water/meth is added. The = injection can=20 be programmed to limit use by rpm or boost level.
Regards,
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Schertz
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: 12/06/2007 7:40 = AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Methods of=20 charge cooling was Water/Meth injection

Ben,
Jack Morrison, at Aurora = Airport is=20 running methanol-water injection in a supercharged IO-540 in an = E-racer. It=20 lowered his cylinder head and EGT temperatures.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS (reserved)
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, = 2007 7:01=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Methods of=20 charge cooling was Water/Meth injection

Ben, here is a = URL that gives a=20 number of different ways to cool the intake charge.  You may = find it=20 interesting
 
http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_con= tent&task=3Dview&id=3D24
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ben=20 Baltrusaitis
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, December = 04, 2007=20 3:00 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Water/Meth=20 injection

I have moved away from the Rotary (shame on me) and toward = the=20 Subaru. I have been researching how to get more torque and found = the=20 only way is with boost. The street Subaru guys are injecting = water and=20 methanol to avoid detonation under high boost--getting 450 hp = from 2.5=20 liters. The methanol and water cool the charge while the = methanol=20 also increases the octane. This allows them to run 89 or 91 = octane=20 fuel under low boost w/o injection and have high octane-high = boost with=20 injection. The injection is set to start at a certain boost = pressure or=20 rpm level.
 
I am going to go this route in my aerobatic biplane so I = can run on=20 cheap fuel in econo cruise and still not detonate while doing = full=20 throttle aerobatics.
 
One of the side benefits of this injection is lower = EGTs--as much=20 as 400 degrees. Has anyone done any testing with water injection = to=20 lower EGTs?
 
Another benefit is much cleaner combustion = chambers. That=20 sounds useful to me, too.
 
http:/= /forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D937176
 
http://w= ww.slowboyracing.com/estore/home.php?cat=3D4559
 
Ben 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = Free=20 Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1173 - = Release=20 Date: 12/5/2007 9:29 PM
------=_NextPart_000_0AE3_01C83B2A.785C01A0--