X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2554592 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:02:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.146.181; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so5869367wah for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:01:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=zAMnYvFtCKYUAQKoSotekyvCf5Vib/pDACYc5M308OU=; b=sX7KrIz+we1AKw4XZQyMZPloBSYV+3vyVN8g+q9+Wml0PqKkhKWRVOoZdbXJWf6CzQAGBsKFx9HjuZX5eO5Obz3P4cBb3tv7r0vyMLQbJtHdcDVDtBLQD2dHywBwlryn8XS+vTnNRIfp8RCocdXVeNRnLz5BpNhnoEh1vXKMKkE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s3L00ZGZH3OLILuhaYIrooDsIbE+HKo92HDDLWBPEIsFNLMuC+klLa7Z8XtGNIs4M/JB509t/Mv9tW8MfShQFddVnT1mXlPt80pVTeC2uUYWsvP/YkIm82XSLvPXvRP/IiR63WNCdCgd58SeuGk13CihqCoRCzr46eYoq0+z5fU= Received: by 10.142.253.21 with SMTP id a21mr11949wfi.1196737310516; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.48.4 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:01:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0712031901n6c91b64fu568332d6a04968ac@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:01:50 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard starting - the saga continues In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2545_24173079.1196737310509" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1dd011b17aff66a9 ------=_Part_2545_24173079.1196737310509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It is odd about being both rear plugs. Only thing that comes to mind is that missing rear sparks can be caused by low cranking speed (below the EC2 minimum of about 120 rpm). Probably not the case since you mentioned that it really cranked over smartly with the plugs out. Tracy On Dec 3, 2007 5:52 PM, Steve Brooks wrote: > > > I did see intermittent spark on the D581 coils as they were going bad so > that's a real possibility with your symptoms. But could be fouled plugs > too. Which coils are you using? I still have 3 of this type on my engine > but they have a cooling plenum over them. The WILL fail without cooling as > I verified 3 times. Never seen a D580 go bad but never say never. > > Looking at the pictures in the EC-2 manual, I appear to have the D580's. My > coils are mounted in a rather cool spot (if there is one) in the cowling. > The are mounted below the intake plenum, right next to the plugs. Maybe > 6" from the side of the engine. I also put new plugs in it when I had > starting issues. Didn't help, but still look pretty new, so probably not > fouled. > > > > The weird thing is that I see the same missing spark pattern on both coils > of the rear rotor. (Rear rotor on my installation, which would be front > rotor for you) I doubt that two coils would fail with the same symptom at > the same time. > > > > BTW, did you ever do the coil test function while on controller B? (it > only operates on B) > > > > I didn't know that piece of information. I'm certain that I only tried it > on controller A. > > > > Unless you are having *really* cold weather, I suggest not using the cold > start switch if you have the primer function (which you do). I get the best > results by turning the mixture control full rich and giving it as many > primer shots as the OAT calls for. This is something that has to be > determined by trial on each installation because they vary so much. When it > fires off I start turning the mixture control down as it warms up. The > rotary is about the fussiest engine in the world on starting fuel > requirements but once you get it right they start immediately. Get it wrong > and you are in for long term frustration. > > > > Good advice. This engine has (up to now) always been pretty easy to > start. It has been hardest to start when the engine is hot, and > particularly if it is also summer time. I'm not sure why it has suddenly > decided to be problematic. > > > > > > Steve > > > > Tracy > > On Dec 2, 2007 6:58 PM, Steve Brooks wrote: > > I spent about 4 hours today, at the airport, trying to fin a solution to > my > engine hard starting issue. > I went there with two fully charged batteries. I verified power leaving > the > breakers to the coils and the injectors. I also replaced three of the > slide > on connectors, because they seemed a little looser fitting than most of > the > others. I also verified that the cold start lead was not grounded. > Measuring it with an ohm meter at the EC-2 connector, I could see the > transition of the switch. It changed from sever thousand ohms off, to > less > than one ohm with the cold start switch on. > > Came time to crank the engine, and I had the same issue. It wouldn't > start. > I did, however, only have the fuel pump on for a few seconds, because I > assumed that I was going to flood the engine. After it failed to start, I > > pulled one of the spark plugs. The plug was dry. Seeing that it wasn't > flooded, I decided to verify ignition on each coil. I pulled one plug on > e > each rotor, and hooked up a spark plug to each of the 2 leads. Cranking > the > engine (which spins really well with 2 spark plugs removed) I had good > spark > on the front rotor, but the rear rotor plug seemed to spark a couple of > times initially, but then did not spark on several engine revolutions. > Repeated the test for the other two coils, with the same result. > > Even though the spark seemed to be not up to snuff, I decided to try to > start the engine again. After replacing the plugs, I hit the primer 3 > times, and cranked the engine. It fired up after a few revolutions, but > was > only running on one rotor. I turned the cold start switch off, and the > other rotor fired up as well. I ran the engine at about 2800 RPM's for > several minutes. I tried both A and B controllers. Each seemed to run > about the same. Since I had adjusted the mixture the last time, I retuned > the A controller at several MAP locations to get the desired mixture. > Running it at higher per levels, however caused the mixture to bottom out > at > about 30 MAP. I didn't try a higher power level, since I was still > sitting > close to other aircraft, and still tied down. > > At this point, I decided to take Ed's suggestion and verify power to the > injectors. To do this, I had to unbolt the fuel rail, and slide it out > with > the injectors to get to the connectors. I removed the retaining clip (RC > Engineering injectors) and verified that I do indeed have power to all > four > injectors. I also verified using the second battery, that I get a click > on > each injector, when applying power. Unfortunately, while re assembling > the > fuel rail, I have an seal leaking when I turn on the fuel pump. I had to > order some new seals, and that ended the testing for today. > > My next steps at this point, are to get the seals and fix the fuel leak. > And also find my fuel pressure gauge and hook it up, so I can see what the > > fuel pressure is doing. > > The only thing I'm confused about is the intermittent spark on the rear > rotor that I observed, yet once it started, it ran fairly well up to 30 > MAP. > > > Steve Brooks > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > ------=_Part_2545_24173079.1196737310509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
It is odd about being both rear plugs.  Only thing that comes to mind is that missing rear sparks can be caused by low cranking speed (below the EC2 minimum of about 120 rpm).  Probably not the case since you mentioned that it really cranked over smartly with the plugs out.
 
Tracy

On Dec 3, 2007 5:52 PM, Steve Brooks <cozy4pilot@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I did see intermittent spark on the D581 coils as they were going bad so that's a real possibility with your symptoms.  But could be fouled plugs too.  Which coils are you using?  I still have 3 of this type on my engine but they have a cooling plenum over them.  The WILL fail without cooling as I verified 3 times.  Never seen a D580 go bad but never say never. 

Looking at the pictures in the EC-2 manual, I appear to have the D580's.  My coils are mounted in a rather cool spot (if there is one) in the cowling.   The are mounted below the intake plenum, right next to the plugs.  Maybe 6" from the side of the engine.    I also put new plugs in it when I had starting issues.   Didn't help, but still look pretty new, so probably not fouled.

 

The weird thing is that I see the same missing spark pattern on both coils of the rear rotor.  (Rear rotor on my installation, which would be front rotor for you)   I doubt that two coils would fail with the same symptom at the same time.

 

BTW, did you ever do the coil test function while on controller B?  (it only operates on B)

 

I didn't know that piece of information.  I'm certain that I only tried it on controller A.

 

Unless you are having really cold weather, I suggest not using the cold start switch if you have the primer function (which you do).  I get the best results by turning the mixture control full rich and giving it as many primer shots as the OAT calls for.  This is something that has to be determined by trial on each installation because they vary so much.  When it fires off I start turning the mixture control down as it warms up.   The rotary is about the fussiest engine in the world on starting fuel requirements but once you get it right they start immediately.  Get it wrong and you are in for long term frustration.

 

Good advice.  This engine has (up to now) always been pretty easy to start.  It has been hardest to start when the engine is hot, and particularly if it is also summer time.    I'm not sure why it has suddenly decided to be problematic.

 

 

Steve

 

Tracy

On Dec 2, 2007 6:58 PM, Steve Brooks < cozy4pilot@gmail.com> wrote:

I spent about 4 hours today, at the airport, trying to fin a solution to my
engine hard starting issue.
I went there with two fully charged batteries.  I verified power leaving the
breakers to the coils and the injectors.  I also replaced three of the slide
on connectors, because they seemed a little looser fitting than most of the
others.  I also verified that the cold start  lead was not grounded.
Measuring it with an ohm meter at the EC-2 connector, I could see the
transition of the switch.  It changed from sever thousand ohms off, to less
than one ohm with the cold start switch on.

Came time to crank the engine, and I had the same issue.  It wouldn't start.
I did, however, only have the fuel pump on for a few seconds, because I
assumed that I was going to flood the engine.  After it failed to start, I
pulled one of the spark plugs. The plug was dry.  Seeing that it wasn't
flooded, I decided to verify ignition on each coil.  I pulled one plug on e
each rotor, and hooked up a spark plug to each of the 2 leads.  Cranking the
engine (which spins really well with 2 spark plugs removed) I had good spark
on the front rotor, but the rear rotor plug seemed to spark a couple of
times initially, but then did not spark on several engine revolutions.
Repeated the test for the other two coils, with the same result.

Even though the spark seemed to be not up to snuff, I decided to try to
start the engine again.  After replacing the plugs, I hit the primer 3
times, and cranked the engine.  It fired up after a few revolutions, but was
only running on one rotor.  I turned the cold start switch off, and the
other rotor fired up as well.  I ran the engine at about 2800 RPM's for
several minutes.  I tried both A and B controllers.  Each seemed to run
about the same.  Since I had adjusted the mixture the last time, I retuned
the  A controller at several MAP locations to get the desired mixture.
Running it at higher per levels, however caused the mixture to bottom out at
about 30 MAP.  I didn't try a higher power level, since I was still sitting
close to other aircraft, and still tied down.

At this point, I decided to take Ed's suggestion and verify power to the
injectors.  To do this, I had to unbolt the fuel rail, and slide it out with
the injectors to get to the connectors.  I removed the retaining clip (RC
Engineering injectors) and verified that I do indeed have power to all four
injectors.  I also verified using the second battery, that I get a click on
each injector, when applying power.  Unfortunately, while re assembling the
fuel rail, I have an seal leaking when I turn on the fuel pump.  I had to
order some new seals, and that ended the testing for today.

My next steps at this point, are to get the seals and fix the fuel leak.
And also find my fuel pressure gauge and hook it up, so I can see what the
fuel pressure is doing.

The only thing I'm confused about is the intermittent spark on the rear
rotor that I observed, yet once it started, it ran fairly well up to 30 MAP.

Steve Brooks


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

 


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