Ed,
Yes, crank angle sensor.  I couldn't think of the correct name for it when I
wrote the email.
The odd thing is when I have gotten it running, it runs very rich.  I have
to turn the control very lean to get it to run correctly at all.

I guess that I'll know more once I try it with a fully charged battery.
I'll verify that I have voltage to both injectors.  They are high impedance,
and are MSD injectors with about 50 hours on them.  I replaced the original
Mazda injectors early on, when I had problems that turned out to be the fuel
regulator.

I have not experienced problems like this getting the engine started.  Not
when I first put it together.  Nor when I rebuilt the engine after the first
20 hours of flying the used engine.  This is much harder to figure out than
the usual go - no go problems.

Regards,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]  On
Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:47 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting

Hi Steve,

Ok, recommend that you send your EC2 back to Tracy for those simulation mods
as they really help in trouble shooting.  Having a fully charged battery (or
two in you location) will help.

Back firing could indicated too lean and/or as you suggested a ignition
timing problem.  One possibility that comes to mind is for you to check and
make certain you have voltage to both your primary and secondary injectors.
Since you do not have the injector disable switches, I would presume you
have 12VDC wire to your injectors continuously (well, with the master switch
or some other switch controlling it ON/OFF).

Check to make certain you have 12 volts on all 4 injectors.   If for some
reason your primary did not have voltage, you would probably still get some
fuel into the system because when you first start to crank you manifold
pressure is 29.92" HG (or thereabouts) which would cause the system to use
all 4 injectors to inject fuel until the rotation had pulled the manifold
pressure lower.  So you secondary's might give you enough to get a pop or
two.  But, if you primary did not have voltage they would not support your
low rpm/idle regime - but, it would probably run on the secondary without
any problem once you were up and running.
Also it would probably act very lean if the primaries were not functioning
properly.

Do you have low impedance or high impedance injectors - if low impedance,
then you should have 4 resistors in line with your 4 fuel injection wires if
for some reason one or both of the primary wire resisters opened up that
could cause a lean condition.

When you say you have an electronic distributor - are you referring to your
CrankAngle sensor in the distributor housing?  Or do you really have a
separate electronic ignition?

Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Brooks" <cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting

Ed,
I made it to the airport today, finally.  I'm not sure when the test
options
were added, but my controller does not seem to do either the injector
test,
or the ignition test.

I did pull the controller out, and the MAP tubes were firmly in place.  I
did switch around the tubes on the controllers, but it still acted the
same
when trying to start.

After trying unsuccessfully to start the engine, the battery starting
going
dead after only about 30 seconds of cranking total.  I suspect for one,
that
my battery is not charged very good.  Since the plane is on the ramp, and
I
have to push it about 100 yards to a power outlet, I pulled the battery
out,
brought it out and put it on the charger.

One thing that I did notice today, and also previously, but forgot to
mention, is that the engine will fire one pop about every revolution, but
also backfires at times.  .I wonder if it could be a timing issue.  I
checked the distributor (solid state ignition), and it is still locked
down
where it was, which is about mid range of the adjustment/  I didn't pull
the
cover off of it, but I did examine the wiring.  Everything seemed to be in
tact still.

I'm planning on trying it again tomorrow with a fully charged batter.  I
may
also put the EC-2 back to default, just in case something strange happened
to the programming.  That's easy to do, and it doesn't really take too
much
to re-tune it afterwards.

Steve Brooks



-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]  On
Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:23 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting

Yes, Steve, I would think pulling a CB for the injectors should disable a
set, so you might try that.

The mode 1 Injector simulation goes like this.

Turn off power to your pumps, turn on power to you EC2 and injectors.
Turn
you mode switch to mode 1 and push the program store button. The EC2 will
generate pulses to the injectors equivalent to the engine running at
around
4000 rpm.  You can definitely hear the injectors clicking away madly
(that's
the reason you want the fuel pumps off or you will truly flood the
engine -
don't ask me how I know)
You get out the simulation mode by switching to a different mode or
turning
off the power to the EC2.

Similarly with the ignition testing.  Turn your mode selector to mode 8
and
press the program store button.  It should trigger both ignition modules
until turned off.

One thing to be careful of is when using the ignition simulation, it is
possible to fire off any combustible mixture you might have in the
chamber.
I have notice the engine fire and the blade swing - so if you had a lot of
fuel in your intake manifold (after say flooding the engine) it might be
theoretically possible for the engine to fire and suck in sufficient fuel
to
turn the blades over several times.  So as always treat a prop like its
running (even when it isn't {:>))

The safer way would be to test your ignition BEFORE you test your
injectors.

These simulation modes only work when the engine is NOT running.

Yes, hard to tell about compression without an expensive Mazda Shop
tester.
But, I have noticed that if there is a compression problem you will
normally
see things bouncing around the same.  If you notice some differences
(especially between the rotors) by the needle swing - it could indicate a
problem.

Hope some of this helps you get to the root of the problem.  I agree with
Al
and Bob, the turbo will have no effect on your start up.  Now if ran too
much boost that could possibly damage seals and therefore lower
compression,
but I know you are very conservative about boost.





ED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Brooks" <cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:48 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting

Hi Ed,
Some very good tips.  Unfortunately I did not install the injector
switches.
I viewed that as another failure point.  I did wire my injector power on
separate breakers though, so there may be an option there.

Compression seems to be good, with even pops as I rotate through the
prop.
I'm not sure about the reading though.  My compression gauge doesn't seem
to
be working correctly as far as holding the peak compression.   Watching
the
needle bounce looks consistent on each pulse, but since all of my
historical
data was on peak hold, it doesn't tell me much.  The little needle valve
seems to be the issue.  I tried replacing it with on from AutoZone, but
it
was destroyed on the first test.

On the injector test, and ignition test, I'm not sure that I have those
features, or if I do, I'm not sure how to get in the test mode.  I take
another look at my manual, but I know that the software had been updated
since I bought the EC2.  About 18 months ago, I believe.

Regards,
Steve Brooks




-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On
Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:12 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting


Steve, the first thing I would do is:

1.  Check that the EC2 injector simulation mode (mode1) is firing all the
injectors
2.  Check that the EC2 Ignition Simulation mode (mode8) is firing all the
plugs

I don't know if this could possibly be the case with you, but since you
were
doing some electrical work, I'll suggest it anyway.

Turn off one set of your injectors and try the mixture control.  If you
find
the mixture control is not acting as before, the system could be in "cold
start" mode.  I damaged the EC2 once by trying to plug in an electrical
device to interface with the EC2.  The engine would run on all four
injectors (and then poorly at low rpm) if I turned the mixture max lean
(CCW), however, it seem to function properly with one pair of injectors
turned off.

Later Tracy discovered that I had fried the B controller and had caused
the
A controller to go into "cold start" mode.  That caused too much fuel
flow
with 4 injectors, but when I cut out one pair, then the mixture
controlled
exercised its normal control

So you might just turn off one pair and see (I'd recommend turning off
your
secondary).

If that does not seem to help, I think the next thing I would check is
the
compression of my rotors. If for some reason you have some faces with low
compression, that can hinder starting.

Hope this helps

Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Brooks" <cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hard Starting

I have an issue all of the sudden with my 13B Turbo not wanting to start.
It will fire occasionally, but just won't start running.
If I am persistent enough (and have enough battery), It will finally
start,
but does not run well. Seems to have a miss in it.  It runs better if I
turn
the mixture to lean, in fact, I can turn the mixture all the way counter
clock wise.  I think that it used to die when I would do that.  When I
switch to controller B, it runs better for a few seconds, and then goes
back
to missing.  It doesn't start any easier on controller B either.

I haven't done a lot of troubleshooting on it yet, but wondered if
anyone
has had a similar issue. I did replace the spark plugs, but that didn't
seem
to help any.  I still have the stock turbo on it, so, maybe the turbo is
starting to go.  It also started this problem, after I fixed a problem
with
the starter.  My Cessna ignition switch got some water in it and it got
to
where it wouldn't engage the starter.  I took it apart, and cleaned all
of
the contacts to fix it.  I have that switch also wired to do the coil
test
when you select mag1 or mag2 on the switch.  The coil test only works on
controller B though, so I don't think that would affect controller A.

I guess that maybe my next step is to verify that I'm getting spark on
all
plugs, and then maybe try removing the plumbing to the throttle body,
and
try starting it then.  That should verify if my turbo is failing, and
restricting air flow.

Steve Brooks
Cozy MKIV 13B Turbo

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