X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2551242 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:47:20 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071201224643.QDHG5837.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2007 22:46:43 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01c8346c$1220c930$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:46:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Hi Steve, Ok, recommend that you send your EC2 back to Tracy for those simulation mods as they really help in trouble shooting. Having a fully charged battery (or two in you location) will help. Back firing could indicated too lean and/or as you suggested a ignition timing problem. One possibility that comes to mind is for you to check and make certain you have voltage to both your primary and secondary injectors. Since you do not have the injector disable switches, I would presume you have 12VDC wire to your injectors continuously (well, with the master switch or some other switch controlling it ON/OFF). Check to make certain you have 12 volts on all 4 injectors. If for some reason your primary did not have voltage, you would probably still get some fuel into the system because when you first start to crank you manifold pressure is 29.92" HG (or thereabouts) which would cause the system to use all 4 injectors to inject fuel until the rotation had pulled the manifold pressure lower. So you secondary's might give you enough to get a pop or two. But, if you primary did not have voltage they would not support your low rpm/idle regime - but, it would probably run on the secondary without any problem once you were up and running. Also it would probably act very lean if the primaries were not functioning properly. Do you have low impedance or high impedance injectors - if low impedance, then you should have 4 resistors in line with your 4 fuel injection wires if for some reason one or both of the primary wire resisters opened up that could cause a lean condition. When you say you have an electronic distributor - are you referring to your CrankAngle sensor in the distributor housing? Or do you really have a separate electronic ignition? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brooks" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting > Ed, > I made it to the airport today, finally. I'm not sure when the test > options > were added, but my controller does not seem to do either the injector > test, > or the ignition test. > > I did pull the controller out, and the MAP tubes were firmly in place. I > did switch around the tubes on the controllers, but it still acted the > same > when trying to start. > > After trying unsuccessfully to start the engine, the battery starting > going > dead after only about 30 seconds of cranking total. I suspect for one, > that > my battery is not charged very good. Since the plane is on the ramp, and > I > have to push it about 100 yards to a power outlet, I pulled the battery > out, > brought it out and put it on the charger. > > One thing that I did notice today, and also previously, but forgot to > mention, is that the engine will fire one pop about every revolution, but > also backfires at times. .I wonder if it could be a timing issue. I > checked the distributor (solid state ignition), and it is still locked > down > where it was, which is about mid range of the adjustment/ I didn't pull > the > cover off of it, but I did examine the wiring. Everything seemed to be in > tact still. > > I'm planning on trying it again tomorrow with a fully charged batter. I > may > also put the EC-2 back to default, just in case something strange happened > to the programming. That's easy to do, and it doesn't really take too > much > to re-tune it afterwards. > > Steve Brooks > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Ed Anderson > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:23 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting > > Yes, Steve, I would think pulling a CB for the injectors should disable a > set, so you might try that. > > The mode 1 Injector simulation goes like this. > > Turn off power to your pumps, turn on power to you EC2 and injectors. > Turn > you mode switch to mode 1 and push the program store button. The EC2 will > generate pulses to the injectors equivalent to the engine running at > around > 4000 rpm. You can definitely hear the injectors clicking away madly > (that's > the reason you want the fuel pumps off or you will truly flood the > engine - > don't ask me how I know) > You get out the simulation mode by switching to a different mode or > turning > off the power to the EC2. > > Similarly with the ignition testing. Turn your mode selector to mode 8 > and > press the program store button. It should trigger both ignition modules > until turned off. > > One thing to be careful of is when using the ignition simulation, it is > possible to fire off any combustible mixture you might have in the > chamber. > I have notice the engine fire and the blade swing - so if you had a lot of > fuel in your intake manifold (after say flooding the engine) it might be > theoretically possible for the engine to fire and suck in sufficient fuel > to > turn the blades over several times. So as always treat a prop like its > running (even when it isn't {:>)) > > The safer way would be to test your ignition BEFORE you test your > injectors. > > These simulation modes only work when the engine is NOT running. > > Yes, hard to tell about compression without an expensive Mazda Shop > tester. > But, I have noticed that if there is a compression problem you will > normally > see things bouncing around the same. If you notice some differences > (especially between the rotors) by the needle swing - it could indicate a > problem. > > Hope some of this helps you get to the root of the problem. I agree with > Al > and Bob, the turbo will have no effect on your start up. Now if ran too > much boost that could possibly damage seals and therefore lower > compression, > but I know you are very conservative about boost. > > > > > > ED > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brooks" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:48 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting > > >> Hi Ed, >> Some very good tips. Unfortunately I did not install the injector >> switches. >> I viewed that as another failure point. I did wire my injector power on >> separate breakers though, so there may be an option there. >> >> Compression seems to be good, with even pops as I rotate through the >> prop. >> I'm not sure about the reading though. My compression gauge doesn't seem >> to >> be working correctly as far as holding the peak compression. Watching >> the >> needle bounce looks consistent on each pulse, but since all of my >> historical >> data was on peak hold, it doesn't tell me much. The little needle valve >> seems to be the issue. I tried replacing it with on from AutoZone, but >> it >> was destroyed on the first test. >> >> On the injector test, and ignition test, I'm not sure that I have those >> features, or if I do, I'm not sure how to get in the test mode. I take >> another look at my manual, but I know that the software had been updated >> since I bought the EC2. About 18 months ago, I believe. >> >> Regards, >> Steve Brooks >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On >> Behalf Of Ed Anderson >> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:12 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting >> >> >> Steve, the first thing I would do is: >> >> 1. Check that the EC2 injector simulation mode (mode1) is firing all the >> injectors >> 2. Check that the EC2 Ignition Simulation mode (mode8) is firing all the >> plugs >> >> I don't know if this could possibly be the case with you, but since you >> were >> doing some electrical work, I'll suggest it anyway. >> >> Turn off one set of your injectors and try the mixture control. If you >> find >> the mixture control is not acting as before, the system could be in "cold >> start" mode. I damaged the EC2 once by trying to plug in an electrical >> device to interface with the EC2. The engine would run on all four >> injectors (and then poorly at low rpm) if I turned the mixture max lean >> (CCW), however, it seem to function properly with one pair of injectors >> turned off. >> >> Later Tracy discovered that I had fried the B controller and had caused >> the >> A controller to go into "cold start" mode. That caused too much fuel >> flow >> with 4 injectors, but when I cut out one pair, then the mixture >> controlled >> exercised its normal control >> >> So you might just turn off one pair and see (I'd recommend turning off >> your >> secondary). >> >> If that does not seem to help, I think the next thing I would check is >> the >> compression of my rotors. If for some reason you have some faces with low >> compression, that can hinder starting. >> >> Hope this helps >> >> Ed >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Brooks" >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:39 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Hard Starting >> >> >>>I have an issue all of the sudden with my 13B Turbo not wanting to start. >>> It will fire occasionally, but just won't start running. >>> If I am persistent enough (and have enough battery), It will finally >>> start, >>> but does not run well. Seems to have a miss in it. It runs better if I >>> turn >>> the mixture to lean, in fact, I can turn the mixture all the way counter >>> clock wise. I think that it used to die when I would do that. When I >>> switch to controller B, it runs better for a few seconds, and then goes >>> back >>> to missing. It doesn't start any easier on controller B either. >>> >>> I haven't done a lot of troubleshooting on it yet, but wondered if >>> anyone >>> has had a similar issue. I did replace the spark plugs, but that didn't >>> seem >>> to help any. I still have the stock turbo on it, so, maybe the turbo is >>> starting to go. It also started this problem, after I fixed a problem >>> with >>> the starter. My Cessna ignition switch got some water in it and it got >>> to >>> where it wouldn't engage the starter. I took it apart, and cleaned all >>> of >>> the contacts to fix it. I have that switch also wired to do the coil >>> test >>> when you select mag1 or mag2 on the switch. The coil test only works on >>> controller B though, so I don't think that would affect controller A. >>> >>> I guess that maybe my next step is to verify that I'm getting spark on >>> all >>> plugs, and then maybe try removing the plumbing to the throttle body, >>> and >>> try starting it then. That should verify if my turbo is failing, and >>> restricting air flow. >>> >>> Steve Brooks >>> Cozy MKIV 13B Turbo >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> ---- >> >> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html