X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2456143 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Nov 2007 07:45:03 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071105124424.FYRJ6760.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:44:24 +0000 Message-ID: <001501c81fa9$5269d220$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 07:42:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C81F7F.6942C3F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C81F7F.6942C3F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bobby, I won't add to the caution about detonation due to high temps of intake = charge, However, I will mention that Tracy Crook sells apex seals that = are highly resistant to detonation. In fact, I don't believe even the = drag racers with high boost levels have succeeded in breaking one. = Under detonation they at worst deform - but don't break. Not to suggest that you can use those seals and have no worry, there are = other areas than apex seals that detonation can damage. =20 There is a school of thought that says using high compression (pistons) = with turbo/super charging gives you the best of both worlds. You get = the strong initial pick up due to the high compression pistons without = the (sometimes momentary delay) waiting for boost to come up. The = combustion chamber treats boost as basically increasing the compression = ratio. It entire thing is combustion chamber pressure (however, it gets = there). High compression/low boost or low boost/high compression - it = doesn't make a difference to the engine. The total pressure is all the = engine knows. However, if you are using high compression rotor/pistons then you do not = have as much margin as low compression rotors would give you. =20 Having a supercharger rather than a turbocharger also helps as there is = no migration of heat from the very hot turbine housing over to the = compressor housing. But, you still have the temp increase due to = compression. =20 I would certainly be cautious on the boost. Those who are using = turbochargers and have had long term success appear to generally use = less than 5" Hg of boost. Good luck and we are all waiting to see your success Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: cbeazley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Hi Bobby; I have seen several turbo "detonation danger" charts over the years. = Heck if I can find any of them now. Some searching should turn one up.=20 Detonation also depends on engine load - ask Lynn about NA detonation = at idle speeds. Here is a link to a calculator: http://www.turbofast.com.au/javacalc.html How to avoid detonation: http://www.misterfixit.com/deton.htm According to most information, 3mm apex seals will not save you from = detonation in a wankel, at best something else in the chain will break. If you insist on running without an intercooler you better have knock = sensors with a fuel cut defender or the like. You might also look into methanol, ethanol, water injection to cool = the intake charge. The wankel has a lot of positives, survival with detonation is not one = of them. Good Luck Cary Bobby, I know your planning only normalizing with the Turbo, but my concern = with the 10:1 high compression rotors is that you might get into = detonation - especially without an intercooler. Then again I'm no expert, that why I would like to know the safe = boost level as well. I recommended the 3mm apex seals because of my concerns of = detonation, not so much the loss of hp. George ( down under) George, Mazfix and Mazsport are both boosting to 280hp at the wheels. = http://mazfix.com.au/perfproducts/rx8_upgrades.html. Pettit Racing is = seeing 270+ with 5-8#'s http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index.htm My = goal has always been to match the IO540 at 8000ft and have a much = lighter plane with new engine. No doubt I will be giving up some HP = without the intercooler. One percent for every 10 degrees I think. If my = cooling ducts and exit area work as planned I may add an intercooler. = The goal now is to get the engine started and flying by summer.=20 Bobby RV10=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 Bobby, I would be interested to see what boost is safe also. You might = consider an intercooler! I assume you are using it on a RX8 engine( i.e. 10:1 ), if so, you = could always consider going to 3mm apex seals, if you feel it would be = safer. George (down under) Not much to tell Rob. It's an Eaton M62 4th gen. = http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp62_4th.htm My notes show the weight at = 25 lbs but I am not sure if that included mounting brackets. If = everything goes as planned I should be able to fire it up in January. = The plan is to use it for normalization or 1-2 psi of boost if the = discharge temps are not to high. It has a 1" internal bypass that = provides a intake air path around the screws so it is yet to be seen = what effect this will have on temps. =20 Does anyone have any real data as to maximum safe intake temps with = 10:1 rotors and 2mm seals? =20 Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 Bobby Tell us a little about your supercharger. What brand? How much? How = heavy? Have you run it yet? Thanks. Robert 20B in a BD4 Robert Bollinger FM1099 MUM Fairfield, IA 52557 rob@mum.edu =20 Home (641)472-7000ex2068 Cell (641)919-3213 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 Looks like the consensus is to place the MAP ports away from the = runners. I will try the discharge duct of the supercharger for both MAP = and the Grand Rapids EIS temperature probe. Looks like the EC2 = temperature probe should not be place after the blower since it leans = fuel at higher air temps. It will go after the air filter and before the = throttle body. Thanks, Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C81F7F.6942C3F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bobby,
 
I won't add to the caution about detonation due = to high=20 temps of intake charge,  However, I will mention that Tracy Crook = sells=20 apex seals that are highly resistant to detonation.  In fact, I = don't=20 believe even the drag racers with high boost levels have succeeded in = breaking=20 one.  Under detonation they at worst deform - but don't = break.
 
Not to suggest that you can use those seals and = have no=20 worry, there are other areas than apex seals that detonation can = damage. =20
 
There is a school of thought that says using = high=20 compression (pistons) with turbo/super charging gives you the best of = both=20 worlds.  You get the strong initial pick up due to the high = compression=20 pistons without the (sometimes momentary delay) waiting for boost to = come=20 up.  The combustion chamber treats boost as basically increasing = the=20 compression ratio.  It entire thing is combustion chamber pressure=20 (however, it gets there).  High compression/low boost or low = boost/high=20 compression - it doesn't make a difference to the engine.  The = total=20 pressure is all the engine knows.
 
However, if you are using high compression = rotor/pistons=20 then you do not have as much margin as low compression rotors would give = you. 
 
Having a supercharger rather than a turbocharger = also=20 helps as there is no migration of heat from the very hot turbine housing = over to=20 the compressor housing. But, you still have the temp increase due = to=20 compression.  
 
 I would certainly be cautious on the = boost. =20 Those who are using turbochargers and have had long term success appear = to=20 generally use less than 5" Hg of boost.
 
Good luck and we are all waiting to see your=20 success
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 cbeazley
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 = 2:43=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Boost = without=20 intercooler [was MAP port location]

Hi Bobby;
I have seen several turbo "detonation = danger"=20 charts over the years.  Heck if I can find any of them = now.
Some=20 searching should turn one up.
Detonation also depends on engine = load - ask=20 Lynn about NA detonation at idle speeds.

Here is a link = to a=20 calculator:
    http://www.turbofast.c= om.au/javacalc.html
How=20 to avoid detonation:
    http://www.misterfixit.com/= deton.htm

According=20 to most information, 3mm apex seals will not save you from detonation = in a=20 wankel,
at best something else in the chain will break.
If you = insist on=20 running without an intercooler you better have knock sensors with a = fuel cut=20 defender or the like.
You might also look into methanol, ethanol, = water=20 injection to cool the intake charge.
The wankel has a lot of = positives,=20 survival with detonation is not one of them.

Good = Luck
Cary

Bobby,
I know your planning only = normalizing with the=20 Turbo, but my concern with the 10:1 high compression rotors is that = you=20 might get into detonation - especially without an = intercooler.
Then again I'm no expert, that why = I would like=20 to know the safe boost level as well.
I recommended the 3mm apex seals = because=20 of my concerns of detonation, not so much the loss of=20 hp.
George ( down under)
George,
 
Mazfix and Mazsport are both boosting to = 280hp at the=20 wheels. http://mazfix.com.au/perfproducts/rx8_upgrades.html.&= nbsp;=20 Pettit Racing is seeing 270+ with 5-8#'s  http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index.htm =  My goal=20 has always been to match the IO540 at 8000ft and have a much lighter = plane with new engine. No doubt I will be giving up some HP = without the=20 intercooler. One percent for every 10 degrees I think. If = my=20 cooling ducts and exit area work as planned I may add an = intercooler. The=20 goal now is to get the engine started and flying by summer.=20
 
 
Bobby
RV10

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]=20 On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Thursday, = November 01,=20 2007 3:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \

Bobby,
I would be interested to see what = boost is safe=20 also. You might consider an intercooler!
I assume you are using it on a RX8 = engine( i.e.=20 10:1 ), if so, you could always consider going to 3mm apex seals, if = you=20 feel it would be safer.
George (down under)
 
Not much to tell Rob. It's an Eaton M62 4th gen. http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp62_4th.htm  = My notes=20 show the weight at 25 lbs but I am not sure if that included = mounting=20 brackets.  If everything goes as planned I should be able to = fire it up=20 in January. The plan is to use it for normalization or 1-2 psi of = boost if=20 the discharge temps are not to high. It has a 1" internal bypass = that=20 provides a intake air path around the screws so it is yet to be seen = what=20 effect this will have on temps. 
 
Does anyone have any real data as to = maximum safe=20 intake temps with 10:1 rotors and 2mm seals?   =
 
Bobby
 
 
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]=20 On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 = 9:39=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: MAP port location \

Bobby
Tell us a little about your = supercharger. What=20 brand? How much? How heavy? Have you run it yet?
Thanks.
Robert
20B in a BD4
 
Robert Bollinger
FM1099 MUM
Fairfield, IA 52557
rob@mum.edu  =
Home=20 (641)472-7000ex2068
Cell     = (641)919-3213
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \

Looks like the=20 consensus is to place the MAP ports away from the runners. I will = try the=20 discharge duct of the supercharger for both MAP and the Grand Rapids = EIS=20 temperature probe. Looks like the EC2 temperature probe should not = be place=20 after the blower since it leans fuel at higher air temps. It will go = after=20 the air filter and before the throttle body.
 
Thanks,
 
Bobby

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