X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2375089 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:07:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071008120628.HORP3965.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:06:28 +0000 Message-ID: <004c01c809a3$b3aba930$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New Spreadsheet Details Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:06:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C80982.2C6A46A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C80982.2C6A46A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, Bill - lets not get insulting or no more spreadsheets for you. It was mainly developed because I am lazy and got tired of picking up a = calculator and running through all the equations time after time. I was = rather pleased with the engine portion (now that it uses manifold = pressure) of it as the results correlated rather well with performance = of my own engine and that of Tracy's old 13B. The cooling section is = still a work in progress and I hope to make it better. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 9:52 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Spreadsheet Details Personally, I think he is just your common ordinary damn genius! =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 7:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Spreadsheet Details =20 Ed, How can I say no! with my single rotor development I was hoping you = might help me with radiator size, perhaps with a bit of guidance I will = be able to use your spread sheet. Please pass to lendich@optusnet.com.au BTW Ed are you and engineer, an ex-maths teacher, or someone who just = loves working on problems? George (down under) I attempted 3 times to post the new spreadsheet to the list, but it = is a few KB too large. So those of you who may want it, send me an e = mail to eanderson@carolina.rr.com with the subject : Spreadsheet . I = will send you a copy. =20 Details of latest revisions. =20 In the past, I have provided a spreadsheet to aid in determining = power, fuel flow, heat produced, etc, and have also attempt to provide = some rudimentary cooling calculations. You can entertain yourself with = it as well with your dream engine {:>) =20 Since there was no engine load component in earlier spreadsheets, I = had provided % throttle opening factor as a substitute. However, that = was never satisfactory because who of us know exactly what % throttle = opening we have at any point and besides that throttle opening does not = necessarily correspond to load. =20 In any case, I recent revised the spreadsheet, so that a user may = now put in his manifold pressure. That is generally a parameter = available to most folks. It also eliminates potential errors from = altitude, air density, temperature etc. It and rpm also provide a better = indicator of LOAD than does throttle position. It will also works for = N/A and turbo engines. =20 =20 =20 All you do is enter your manifold pressure (and the other engine = operating parameters) and the calculations will use that to calculate = the air density in the intake and from that the power, flow rates,BTU, = etc. So now the manifold air density is separate from the cooling air = density which is dependent on altitude. So manifold pressure and = altitude (ambient pressure) are now separate for engine operation and = cooling operations. =20 So in the cooling section you must now enter your altitude for = cooling calculations. Also, I have now provided for the user to enter = the dimensions of his cooling cores and the number rather than the = default Gm cores and RX-7 oil cooler I had been using. You can change = these parameters on the second sheet titled "Cooling Calculations", it = shows recommended default values (the GM cores and Stock Rx-7 cooler) = just to get you started or if your project is still in the dream stage. =20 Also there is provision on the cooling calculations sheet to have = your coolant flow rate proportional to engine rpm (more realistic). The = flow rate is based on Racing Beat information for 1974 and later coolant = pump flow rate. If you have changed the pulley ratio to non-stock then = these flow rates may be off a bit - but still more realistic than = assuming a 40 gpm flow rate at idle and at 6000 rpm {:>). =20 =20 So these changes mean you can now simulate a partial throttle = operation say at 19" Hg and a cooling altitude at 7500 MS. You can now = see if your system should be cooling at that power setting and then you = could change the power setting to 22" Hg and see if you installation = should still cool at that selected air speed and altitude and power = setting. Manifold pressure and Air Fuel Ratio can make a considerable = difference in the amount of heat produced. So pay attention to the = values you are using. =20 Now here is the potential problem I can see. If you tell the = spreadsheet you are flying at 7500 MSL in the cooling data input, but = you decide to use WOT for your engine, you must realize that the ambient = pressure (and therefore your manifold pressure) at that altitude will = not be 29.92 " HG. Your manifold pressure (for N/A engine) would never = be that high for an N/A engine at that altitude - but, it could be for = a turbo engine. So unless you selected YES for turbocharged in the data = entry area, an error message will be displayed "Manifold Pressure = exceeds ambient". It can also happen if you have already selected a = manifold pressure say 29" while at sea level, but then you enter 2000 = MSL for altitude in the cooling section. The warming message will = inform you that your manifold pressure now exceeds the ambient pressure = at 2000 MSL ( unless you enter=20 turbo charged =3D "yes"). =20 If you select an RPM value for the cooling section and it is outside = the limits of the rpm values in your calculated data table, then an = error message "Invalid RPM" will be shown in the cooling data entry = area. So that would mean either change the rpm OR change the range of = rpm in the table by adjusting the rpm start value or the rpm step value. =20 As always, if anyone finds an error or problem please let me know. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.2/1052 - Release Date: = 5/10/2007 6:53 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C80982.2C6A46A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey, Bill - lets  not get insulting or no = more=20 spreadsheets for you.
 
 It was mainly developed because I am lazy = and got=20 tired of picking up a calculator and running through all the equations = time=20 after time.  I was rather pleased with the engine portion (now that = it uses=20 manifold pressure)  of it as the results correlated rather well = with=20 performance of my own engine and that of Tracy's old 13B.  The = cooling=20 section is still a work in progress and I hope to make it = better.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 = 9:52=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New = Spreadsheet=20 Details

Personally, = I think=20 he is just your common ordinary damn = genius!

 

Bill=20 B

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George = Lendich
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 = 7:25=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: New Spreadsheet Details

 

 Ed,

How can I say no! with = my single=20 rotor development I was hoping you might help me with radiator size, = perhaps=20 with a bit of guidance I will be able to use your spread=20 sheet.

Please pass to lendich@optusnet.com.au

BTW Ed are you and = engineer, an=20 ex-maths teacher, or someone who just loves working on=20 problems?

George (down=20 under)

I attempted 3 times to = post the=20 new spreadsheet to the list, but it is a few KB too large.  So = those of=20 you who may want it, send me an e mail to eanderson@carolina.rr.com = with=20 the subject :  Spreadsheet .  I will send you a=20 copy.

 

Details of latest=20 revisions.

 

In the past, I have = provided a=20 spreadsheet to aid in determining power, fuel flow, heat produced, = etc, and=20 have also attempt to provide some rudimentary cooling = calculations. =20 You can entertain yourself with it as well with your dream engine=20 {:>)

 

Since there was no = engine load=20 component in earlier spreadsheets, I had provided % throttle = opening=20 factor as a substitute.  However, that was never  = satisfactory=20 because who of us know exactly what % throttle opening we have = at any=20 point and besides that throttle opening does not necessarily = correspond to=20 load.

 

In any case, I recent = revised=20 the spreadsheet, so that a user may now put in his manifold = pressure. =20 That is generally a parameter available to most folks.  It also = eliminates  potential errors from altitude, air density, = temperature=20 etc. It and rpm also provide a better indicator of LOAD = than does=20 throttle position.   It will also works for  N/A and = turbo=20 engines. 

 

 

All you do is = enter your=20  manifold pressure (and the other engine = operating parameters)=20  and the calculations will use that to calculate the air = density in the=20 intake and from that the power, flow rates,BTU, etc.  So now = the=20 manifold air density is separate from the cooling air density which = is=20 dependent on altitude.  So manifold pressure and altitude = (ambient=20 pressure) are now separate for engine operation and cooling=20 operations.

 

So in the cooling = section you=20 must now enter your altitude for cooling calculations.  Also, I = have=20 now provided for the user to enter the dimensions of his cooling = cores and=20 the number rather than the default Gm cores and RX-7 oil cooler I = had been=20 using.  You can change these parameters on the second sheet = titled=20 "Cooling Calculations", it  shows recommended default values = (the GM=20 cores and Stock Rx-7 cooler) just to get you started or if your = project is=20 still in the dream stage.

 

Also there is = provision on the=20 cooling calculations sheet to have your coolant flow rate = proportional to=20 engine rpm (more realistic).  The flow rate is based on Racing = Beat=20 information for 1974 and later coolant pump  flow rate.  = If you=20 have changed the pulley ratio to non-stock then these flow rates may = be off=20 a bit - but still more realistic than assuming a 40 gpm flow rate at = idle=20 and at 6000 rpm {:>). 

 

So these changes mean = you can=20 now simulate a partial throttle operation say at 19" Hg and a = cooling=20 altitude at 7500 MS.  You can now see if your system should be = cooling=20 at that power setting and then you could change the power setting to = 22" Hg=20 and see if you installation should still cool at that selected = air=20 speed and altitude and power setting.  Manifold pressure and = Air Fuel=20 Ratio can make a considerable difference in the amount of heat=20 produced.  So pay attention to the values you are=20 using.

 

Now here is the = potential=20 problem I can see.  If you tell the spreadsheet you are flying = at 7500=20 MSL in the cooling data input, but you decide to use WOT for your = engine,=20 you must realize that the ambient pressure (and therefore your = manifold=20 pressure) at that altitude  will not be 29.92 " = HG.  Your=20  manifold pressure (for N/A engine) would never be that high = for=20 an N/A engine at that altitude  - but, it could be = for a=20 turbo engine.  So unless you selected YES for=20 turbocharged in the data entry area, an error message will be = displayed=20 "Manifold Pressure exceeds=20 ambient".  It can also happen if you = have=20 already selected a manifold pressure say 29" while at sea level, but = then=20 you enter 2000 MSL for altitude in the cooling section.  = The=20 warming message will inform you that your manifold pressure = now exceeds=20 the ambient pressure at 2000 MSL ( unless you enter=20

turbo charged =3D=20 "yes").

 

If you select an RPM = value for=20 the cooling section and it is outside the limits of the rpm = values in=20  your calculated data  table, then an error message=20 "Invalid=20 RPM" will be shown in the cooling data = entry=20 area.  So that would mean either change the rpm OR change the = range of=20 rpm in the table by adjusting the rpm start value or the rpm step=20 value.

 

As always, if anyone = finds an=20 error or problem please let me = know.

 

Ed

 

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A = N494BW=20 Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A = N494BW=20 Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.comhttp://www.andersonee.com
http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html

No virus found in this incoming = message.
Checked=20 by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: = 269.14.2/1052 -=20 Release Date: 5/10/2007 6:53=20 PM

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