X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2373662 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 09:00:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071007130006.ZRIZ3965.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:00:06 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c808e2$06057070$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Coolant Temp meausrement was Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:00:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C808C0.7EC1C3F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C808C0.7EC1C3F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know about the Renesis engine, but the older 13B had two coolant = sensors, one in the rear iron housing and one on the pump/thermostat = housing -exit from the engine. The one on the rear housing was = connected to the temp gauge on the instrument panel, the one on the pump = housing was used to control the radiator fan. It was set to turn the = fan on when the coolant leaving the engine reached a temp of 207F. However, most measure the temperature exiting the engine - which may be = a bit warmer than measured on the rear rotor. The reason (I believe) = for this practice of measuring coolant out temps is that early on - the = only factual data around was from Racing Beats Technical catalog on the = Rotary engine. They recommend not letting the engine water temperature = out of the engine exceed 185F. However, The do state that a low temp = rise to 200F is unlikely to hurt the engine as opposed to a rapid rise = due to a bust coolant line, lost fan belt, etc.=20 I also think that the fact the fan temp sensor was not set to turn on = the fan until an engine out coolant temp reached 207F indicates there = was a bit more margin than the 185F limit Racing Beat advised. Also I = would think the engine designers would have the fan come on before = reaching the critical limit to provide a bit of a safety margin - but, = that is just my opinion. That coolant temp limit with the earlier engines was based (I believe) = largely on the fact that in the earlier engines the Achilles heel was = the inner coolant "O" rings which did not handle higher temperatures = well. My first tear down of the engine was early on in my flight = testing where I failed to get all the air out of my system and had the = engine get hot. It turns out the stock O ring seal had failed due to = elevated temperatures.=20 However, Once we started using TES O rings, I believe that removed that = Achilles heel failure point and moved the temp limit up. I know that = myself (and many others) have temperature excursions past 200F ( Tracy = Crook and I have had coolant temp increases to 240F for short duration = without apparently ill effect). Again, not recommended, best to always = keep the coolant at 200F or less, but it does not appear to do any = apparent damage if a temporary short duration excursion. FWIW Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Mark, Yes I will be there on Saturday. I suppose it is too much to ask for = you to fly your plane there??? :>) =20 You know, I think my 360 degree kink is going to require around 40 = knots in order to have the energy to make all those turns..Right now a = 120 knot test is going to require a trailer hitch! J The location for the temp measurement is basically stock. The stock = sending unit was metric and too large to use with the one that came with = the EM-2, so I plugged it and tapped a smaller hole on top as opposed to = the stock location on the side of the inlet. I was wondering why the = stock location measured temps incoming to the engine if it is better to = measure outgoing temps. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 7:48 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 Hi Bill,=20 Looks like you've made great progress since we last spoke. It = shouldn't be long now. Are you planning on attending Tracy's (actually, = I should say Laura's) rotary roundup? Lots to talk about. =20 =20 Concerning your cooling system, I assume the air comes in the backside = of the radictor? What kind of inlet & diffuser did you use? I measured = my airflow today through the radiator. It flows 40 knots at 120 knots = IAS. It may be a little fast. You may want to measure yours, when the = time comes. =20 =20 You mentioned that you were measuring coolant temperature after the = radiator? I think you also need to measure it as it leaves the engine. = This will tell you how hot you're running and how close you are to = redline. Just the opposite as for the oil. =20 =20 If those hose clamps are not constant torque clamps, please consider = upgrading them before first flight. They're available from McMaster. =20 =20 Keep up the good work. Hope to see you at Tracy's. =20 Mark S. =20 On 10/6/07, Bill Bradburry wrote:=20 Ok, I recently upgraded my computer to Vista and had to download some = software to get my camera to talk to it.So here are some pictures of my = cooling install=20 =20 Notice the bypass hole that you guys are talking about needing to = plug. This hole is in the housing which has been removed, so it is not = a player.=20 The little rag you see on the oil line is a high tech way of checking = for a leak. (I have one!) =20 The red wire is the air temp sensor for the air after the radiator. = It is on top of the fan. Hoses are 1 =BC" The temperature sensor was moved from the left side = of the inlet to the top But is reading temperature as it enters the engine after the radiator. = (coolest place) =20 My overflow catch can. I will be replacing this with a pressurized on = as per Lynn's suggestions in a previous post in order to introduce=20 An air cushion above the liquid under pressure so it will not be = "locked". =20 I am planning to try and put suction on the cowling at the exit with a = leaf blower in addition to the prop blast and the small fan to see if an = increase in=20 Air flowing will help. I haven't checked the sides of the radiator = yet as I have been alone when running the engine..=20 All inputs appreciated. I already know some things should be changed, = so don't hold back with the suggestions.=20 =20 Thanks, Bill B =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C808C0.7EC1C3F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't know about the Renesis engine, but the = older 13B had=20 two coolant sensors, one in the rear iron housing and one on the = pump/thermostat=20 housing -exit from the engine.  The one on the rear housing was = connected=20 to the temp gauge on the instrument panel, the one on the pump housing = was used=20 to control the radiator fan.  It was set to turn the fan on when = the=20 coolant leaving the engine reached a temp of 207F.
 
However, most measure the temperature exiting = the engine -=20 which may be a bit warmer than measured on the rear rotor.  The = reason (I=20 believe) for this practice of measuring coolant out temps  is that = early on=20 - the only factual data around was from Racing Beats Technical = catalog on=20 the Rotary engine.  They recommend not letting the engine water = temperature=20 out of the engine exceed 185F.  However, The do state that a low = temp rise=20 to 200F is unlikely to hurt the engine as opposed to a rapid rise due to = a bust=20 coolant line, lost fan belt, etc. 
 
 I also think that the fact the fan temp = sensor was=20 not set to turn on the fan until  an engine out coolant temp = reached=20  207F  indicates there was a bit more margin than the 185F = limit=20 Racing Beat advised.  Also I would think the engine designers would = have=20 the fan come on before reaching the critical limit to provide a bit of a = safety=20 margin - but, that is just my opinion.
 
That coolant temp limit with the earlier engines = was based=20 (I believe) largely on the fact that in the earlier engines the Achilles = heel=20 was the inner coolant "O" rings which did not handle higher temperatures = well.  My first tear down of the engine was early on in my=20 flight testing where I failed to get all the air out of my = system and=20 had the engine get hot.  It turns out the stock O ring seal had = failed due=20 to elevated temperatures. 
 
 However, Once we started using TES O = rings, I=20 believe that removed that Achilles heel failure point and  moved = the temp=20 limit up.   I know that myself (and many others) have = temperature=20 excursions past 200F ( Tracy Crook and I have had coolant temp = increases to 240F for short duration without apparently ill = effect). =20 Again, not recommended, best to always keep the coolant = at 200F=20 or less, but it does not appear to do any apparent damage if a temporary = short=20 duration excursion.
 
FWIW
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matthews,=20 NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.comhttp://www.andersonee.com
http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Saturday, October 06, = 2007 10:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water=20 Pressure

Mark,

Yes I will = be there=20 on Saturday.  I suppose it is too much to ask for you to fly your = plane=20 there???  :>)

 

You know, I = think my=20 360 degree kink is going to require around 40 knots in order to have = the=20 energy to make all those turns=85.Right now a 120 knot test is going = to require=20 a trailer hitch!  J

The = location for the=20 temp measurement is basically stock.  The stock sending unit was = metric=20 and too large to use with the one that came with the EM-2, so I = plugged it and=20 tapped a smaller hole on top as opposed to the stock location on the = side of=20 the inlet.  I was wondering why the stock location measured temps = incoming to the engine if it is better to measure outgoing=20 temps.

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, October 06, = 2007 7:48=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water=20 Pressure

 

Hi Bill,

Looks like you've made great progress since = we last=20 spoke.  It shouldn't be long now.  Are you planning on=20 attending Tracy's (actually, I should say = Laura's)=20 rotary roundup?  Lots to talk about. =20  

 

Concerning your cooling system, I = assume the air=20 comes in the backside of the radictor?  What kind of inlet & = diffuser=20 did you use?  I measured my airflow today through the = radiator.  It=20 flows 40 knots at 120 knots IAS.  It may be a little fast.  = You may=20 want to measure yours, when the time comes.   =20

 

You mentioned that you were measuring = coolant=20 temperature after the radiator?  I think you also need to measure = it as=20 it leaves the engine.  This will tell you how hot you're running = and how=20 close you are to redline.  Just the opposite as for the = oil. =20

 

If those hose clamps are not constant torque = clamps,=20 please consider upgrading them before first flight.  They're = available=20 from McMaster. 

 

Keep up the good work.  Hope to = see you at=20 Tracy's.
 

Mark S.


 

On 10/6/07, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 wrote:

Ok, I = recently=20 upgraded my computer to Vista and = had to=20 download some software to get my camera to talk to it=85So here are = some=20 pictures of my cooling install

 

Notice the = bypass=20 hole that you guys are talking about needing to plug.  This hole = is in=20 the housing which has been removed, so it is not a player.=20

The little = rag you=20 see on the oil line is a high tech way of checking for a leak. (I have = one!)

 

The red = wire is the=20 air temp sensor for the air after the radiator.  It is on top of = the=20 fan.

Hoses are 1 = =BC" =20 The temperature sensor was moved from the left side of the inlet to = the=20 top

But is = reading=20 temperature as it enters the engine after the radiator. (coolest=20 place)

 

My overflow = catch=20 can.  I will be replacing this with a pressurized on as per = Lynn's = suggestions in a=20 previous post in order to introduce

An air = cushion above=20 the liquid under pressure so it will not be=20 "locked".

 

I am = planning to try=20 and put suction on the cowling at the exit with a leaf blower in = addition to=20 the prop blast and the small fan to see if an increase in=20

Air flowing = will=20 help.  I haven't checked the sides of the radiator yet as I have = been=20 alone when running the engine=85.

All inputs=20 appreciated.  I already know some things should be changed, so = don't hold=20 back with the suggestions.

 

Thanks,

Bill=20 B

 


--
Homepage:  =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l=20


 

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C808C0.7EC1C3F0--