X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost03.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2366265 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:23:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.53; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from arptk8ng400 (adsl-146-124-76.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.124.76]) by bellsouth.net (frfwmhc03) with SMTP id <20071003152308H0300ck4p7e>; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:23:08 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.124.76] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:23:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C805AF.C8C92420" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcgFxoE9y9DyOYQsSWyMyQSR6EDPagACWT5A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C805AF.C8C92420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed, this is at about 2000 rpm. Like a fast idle. I am getting all kinds of fuel cut like stoppages if I try to run the engine faster. I haven't seen more than about 3700 rpm, but I just started it and have not tried to tune anything. I figure I will have to run longer to get it tuned and the cooling is holding that back. Speaking of that, you guys were talking a while back about the effects you see when the engine is too lean, or too rich. Talking about backfires, etc and what each effect represents. I have forgotten what means what.senior days, not moments! Do any of you remember how that went? I am having some problems getting started and am not certain if I am too rich or too lean. I am getting backfires out the exhaust at times and smoke from the exhaust at that time. (black) I ran the batteries down yesterday trying to get started due to this. When I originally started the engine, I flooded it. I am trying to prevent this now and am concerned that I may not be using enough mixture. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Bill, You indicate you get overheating after 10-15 minutes run time. I may have missed it, but is this at idle, max throttle or what. Also what is your OAT. If at idle or low power then, yes what you are seeing is not what it should be. On the other hand, if at WOT or high power settings, then 10-15 minutes run time would be indication of a great cooling capacity. I can not run my engine more than a minute or two at WOT on a 80F day without temps getting into the 200F range. But, that is at 5800-6000 rpm. At idle, the temps stabilize and I can idle all day with safe temps. My coolant system runs with no air cushion and yes, I get a hydraulic "lock" pressure reading of as high as 25 psi immediately upon engine start up. After a 30 - 60 seconds of running the pressure drops down to zero and then after a few minutes running builds back up as the coolant warms up to operating temperatures. Plenty of suggestion have been made about what to check - all good. Good luck. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Wick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:30 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Bill, the definitive test is the one I described below. Really encourage you to do it as described. Resist assumptions. Convert your ideas to measurements. -al wick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak? I never see any air. To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles.How do you check a rotary? I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above 250*?? Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al p Wick Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Your coolant reservoir should be above engine. 1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then repeat your test. 2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of cold start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling system or bad gage. 3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local boiling, high temps, strange behavior. Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator of system integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect on system efficiency, just a substantial improvement in safety. Only time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too small, way too low, or flowed way too much coolant. Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have temperature problem. I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various concepts. Don't recommend you do the same. -al wick On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" writes: I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my cowl. I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures. I can only run the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*. My water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time. I only have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have not confirmed that. My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*. It might have gone higher if I could have run longer??? This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled. Since this is a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to the expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some comments that have been made from time to time. I remember something that Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to zero. It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely since it is a closed system?? Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressure? It seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, so the net effect of the pump should be close to zero?? Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not have to tear it down. As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how the water flows through the system. Could someone help me with that? I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to the lower inlet of the pump. Thanks, Bill B -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C805AF.C8C92420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed, this is at about 2000 = rpm.  Like a fast idle.  I am getting all kinds of fuel cut like stoppages if I = try to run the engine faster.  I haven’t seen more than about 3700 = rpm, but I just started it and have not tried to tune anything.  I figure I = will have to run longer to get it tuned and the cooling is holding that = back.

 

Speaking of that, you guys were = talking a while back about the effects you see when the engine is too lean, or too rich.  Talking about backfires, etc and what each effect = represents.  I have forgotten what means what…senior days, not = moments!

Do any of you remember how that = went?  I am having some problems getting started and am not certain if I am too = rich or too lean.  I am getting backfires out the exhaust at times and = smoke from the exhaust at that time. (black)

I ran the batteries down yesterday = trying to get started due to this.  When I originally started the engine, = I flooded it.  I am trying to prevent this now and am concerned that = I may not be using enough mixture.

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, October = 03, 2007 10:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure

 

Bill,

 

You indicate you get overheating after 10-15 minutes = run time.  I may have missed it, but is this at idle, max throttle or what.  Also what is your OAT.  If at idle or low power then, = yes what you are seeing is not what it should be.  On the other hand, if at = WOT or high power settings, then 10-15 minutes run time would be indication of = a great cooling capacity.  I can not run my engine more than a minute or = two at WOT on a 80F day without temps getting into the 200F range.  But, = that is at 5800-6000 rpm.  At idle, the temps stabilize and I can idle all = day with safe temps.

 

My coolant system runs with no air cushion and yes, I = get a hydraulic "lock" pressure reading of as high as 25 psi = immediately upon engine start up.  After a 30 - 60 seconds of running the pressure  drops down to zero and then after a few minutes = running builds back up as the coolant warms up to operating temperatures.  =

 

Plenty of suggestion have been made about what to = check - all good. 

 

Good luck.

 

Ed

 

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Al Wick =

Sent: = Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:30 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure

 

Bill, the definitive test is the one I described = below. Really encourage you to do it as described. Resist assumptions. Convert = your ideas to measurements.

 

-al wick

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: = Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:08 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure

 

I think that I would see air under = the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak?  I never see any air. =

To check a piston engine for head = gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to = about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator for air = bubbles…How do you check a rotary?

I will check the pressure sender = against a mechanical gage. 

There is obviously a heating = problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be until just ready to boil.  I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling = point should be well above 250*??

 

Thanks for the suggestions of where = to look, guys…

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al p Wick
Sent: Tuesday, October = 02, 2007 7:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water Pressure

 

Your coolant reservoir should be above engine. =

 

1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then = repeat your test.

2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 = minutes of cold start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling = system or bad gage.

 

3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other = cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local boiling, high = temps, strange behavior.

 

Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety = and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only = see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have = genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator of system = integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect on system efficiency, just a = substantial improvement in safety. Only time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too small, way too low, or flowed way too much = coolant.

 

Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have temperature problem.

 

I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was = intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various = concepts. Don't recommend you do the same.

 

-al wick

 

 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" = <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= writes:

I just recently got my Renesis started again after = finishing my cowl.  I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures.  I = can only run the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*.  My water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time.  I only = have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, = but I have not confirmed that.  My oil temp has never exceeded about = 165*.  It might have gone higher if I could have run = longer???

 

This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled.  Since this is a closed system and the only way pressure = can build is due to the expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am = confused by some comments that have been made from time to time.  I remember = something that Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to zero.  It = seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely since = it is a closed system??

 

Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of = this pressure?  It seems to me that there could be some pressure build = up on the positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction = side, so the net effect of the pump should be close to = zero??

 

Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I = bought it, so I did not have to tear it down.  As a result, I am somewhat in = the dark as to how the water flows through the system.  Could someone help = me with that?  I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , = so I made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump = and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to = the lower inlet of the pump.

 

Thanks,

Bill B

 


-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= /span>

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