X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail17.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.198] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2342786 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:43:20 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.198; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d198-142-113-254.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [198.142.113.254]) by mail17.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l8KMgYUT007149 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:42:35 +1000 Message-ID: <001301c7fbd7$8e43fff0$fe718ec6@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: TDC Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:42:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C7FC2B.5EE50890" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C7FC2B.5EE50890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Could be - just going on memory of one of those animated rotary sites, = where you can slow down the animation to follow the different events - = perhaps I'm confused or memory isn't so good! George ( down under) George, You may be making reference to the fact that the 86-91 13B rotarys = using the stock coil /igniter use a single "double secondary" coil for the = leading spark plugs which fires one rotor on combustion cycle and at the same time fires = the second=20 rotor which is on the exhaust cycle.....The so called "Wasted Spark = System".....=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from wrjjrs@aol.com: --------------=20 George, That wouldn't be true of the standard configuration, there are only = 2 sparks. An MSD is helpful in rotaries as well. The MSD system just = fire multiple times in trail from the standard ignition event. There is = no additional third timed spark. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:23 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TDC Thanks Bill, What I was referring to was the spark events per combustion event, I = believe there are 3 spark events per combustion event - firstly the = leading at 25 degrees BTDC and then the trailing at 10 degrees BTDC ( 15 = degrees later) and I believe the leading fires again ( from memory) but = I don't know when? George (down under) George, My standard housings only have 2 plug holes! Do you have some = Lemans engine housings? Or perhaps you are refering to a MSD multi-spark = system. If that is the case you should know that the MSD box will make a = second spark at the same location in a few miliseconds. Even before the = trailing fires if you have a standard split. Lots of people aren't even = using a split. Power wouldn't change much. The efficiency might change a = fraction which is worth something. Cheers, Bill Jepson=20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 3:30 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TDC Can someone answer this questions, if the timing is set at 25 = degrees BTDC and the leading fires at 25 degrees BTDC and the Trailing = fires 15 degrees later (10 degrees BTDC) - when does the third spark = event fire, is that another 15 degrees with the leading firing again? The pulley end keyway points to 9.00 at TDC ( plug sides) on the = housing closest to the pulleys ( Front/ our rear) - is this what is = referred to as No1 housing? George (down under)=20 In a message dated 04/26/2005 12:00 Central Daylight Time, = Lehanover writes: << In a message dated 04/25/2005 07:00 Central Daylight Time, = jwvoto@itlnet.net writes: I can look into the spark plug hole and see the apex seal go by, = so are you calling apex seal crossing leading plug TDC?=20 There are a number of gags to locate TDC close enough to get the = engine to run. (1) Remove one spark plug from number one housing. Screw a length of = hose into the plug hole. Put your tongue on the end of the hose. Gently = turn over the engine. When you get a null, where there is no pressure = and no suction on your tongue, that's TDC. Good to within a few degrees. = (2) Or, Bend up a piece of welding filler rod so as to make a pointer = that can touch a flywheel (flexplate) tooth. Bolt or clamp the wire to = the rear iron. Take both plugs out of number two rotor housing.=20 Turn the engine until you see an apex seal in the center of the = trailing plug hole. Bend the filler rod so that it points to the center of a = flywheel tooth. Put a white paint drop on that tooth.=20 Turn the engine in the running direction, until that same apex = seal appears in the center of the leading plug hole. Put a paint drop on the tooth the rod is now pointing at.=20 Count the teeth between the paint dots. Divide by 2.=20 The point half way between the two paint dots is TDC in the = number one housing. Good to within a few degrees. Also, you can count the total number of teeth and divide that = number into 360 to get the number of degrees per tooth. Paint the = correct tooth yellow and make the rod a permanent piece, for setting = accurate timing in an easy to see location.=20 (3) Or, (Similar to above) Take both plugs out of number one.=20 Turn engine in running direction until an apex seal appears in = the trailing plug hole. Gently turn the engine backwards until an apex seal appears in = the leading plug hole.=20 Half way between those two events is TDC. With practice, = accurate enough to do by just feel and rocking back and forth by hand = and to find TDC within a few degrees, or close enough to drop in the = distributor and have the engine fire instantly and run fine.=20 (4) If you used grease or Vaseline on the side seals, you can have a = plug prepared with the center knocked out of it and a plug in place with = a piece of brake line soldered through the center. Screw this special = plug into the bottom plug hole. Push a length of plastic tubing over the = piece of brake tubing. Pour auto trans fluid through the top plug hole. = Reinstall the top plug. Hold the hose in the vertical. Turn the engine = until the fluid level nulls.=20 That's TDC number one with a degree.=20 (5) The flywheel end counter weight is centered between the plugs on = number two rotor housing. That's TDC number one within about 10 degrees. = But you can get good at it, and get more accurate. (6) If you have the front pulley bolt and washer off, looking from = the front=20 pulley end, the keyway in the 9:00 O'clock position is TDC number one within = a few=20 degrees. My TDC rig is for setting up port timings and requires a = disassembled=20 engine, so that won't help you. Good for inside of one degree.=20 (6)=20 Quick and dirty. Take out either plug from number one housing. Wet a finger. Hold it gently over the empty plug hole. Turn the = engine in=20 the running direction. When the air quits pushing past your = finger, that's TDC=20 within 10 degrees or less.=20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 On 9/19/07, bmears9413@aol.com wrote:=20 Changing the subject a bit, I want to make sure i have my = motor on TDC to set my timing marks on the flywheel. This is my plan, = tell me what you think. I'm building a fitting to screw in the spark = plug hole, and running a vacuum line to a small suringe (like a insulin = suringe). I can eyeball the rotor location close to TDC, the install = this contraption and rotate the motor so the suringe moves out to the = end and starts back in. then back the motor up again till the suringe = tops out. I figure that outa be and accurate TDC. Whadda ya think???=20 Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 1:16 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Strange Ignition?=20 I do not believe that is a significant factor, either, Al. = After all, we're suppose to do our ignition checks on the ground before = take off {:>). My understanding is that best power on the 13B has = ignition timing between 25-28 deg BTDC, so not surprising that the 20B = would fall in that range also. Sounds reasonable to me.=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:08 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Strange Ignition?=20 =20 I wondered if perhaps one issue was that I was doing the = ignition check static, on the ground; where the combination of RPM and = MAP would be different than in the air. But on checking with Tracy 's = spreadsheet on the timing settings, over a fairly broad range above = about 4900 the timing is (should be) in the range of 26 to 28 degrees = BTDC. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free = AOL Mail! =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release = Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.25/1018 - Release Date: = 19/09/2007 3:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date: = 20/09/2007 12:07 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C7FC2B.5EE50890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
Could be - just going on memory of one = of those=20 animated rotary sites, where you can slow down the animation to = follow the=20 different events - perhaps I'm confused or memory isn't so = good!
George ( down under)
George,
    You may be making reference to the fact that = the 86-91=20 13B rotarys using the
stock coil /igniter use a single "double secondary" coil for = the=20 leading spark plugs
which fires one rotor on combustion cycle and at = the same=20 time fires the second
rotor which is on the exhaust cycle.....The so = called "Wasted Spark=20 System"..... 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20




--------------=20 Original message from wrjjrs@aol.com: --------------

George,
That wouldn't be true of the standard configuration, there are = only 2=20 sparks. An MSD is helpful in rotaries as well. The MSD system just = fire=20 multiple times in trail from the standard ignition event. There is = no=20 additional third timed spark.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: = George=20 Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:23=20 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TDC

Thanks Bill,
What I was referring to was the = spark events=20 per combustion event, I believe there are 3 spark events per = combustion=20 event - firstly the leading at 25 degrees BTDC and then the trailing = at 10=20 degrees BTDC ( 15 degrees later) and I believe the leading fires = again (=20 from memory) but I don't know when?
George (down under)
George,
My=20 standard housings only have 2 plug holes! Do you have some Lemans = engine=20 housings? Or perhaps you are refering to a MSD multi-spark system. = If that=20 is the case you should know that the MSD box will make a second = spark at=20 the same location in a few miliseconds. Even before the trailing = fires if=20 you have a standard split. Lots of people aren't even using a = split. Power=20 wouldn't change much. The efficiency might change a fraction which = is=20 worth something.
Cheers,
Bill = Jepson 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 3:30 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TDC

Can someone answer this = questions, if the=20 timing is set at 25 degrees BTDC and the leading fires at 25 = degrees=20 BTDC and the Trailing fires 15 degrees later (10 degrees BTDC) - = when=20 does the third spark event fire, is that another 15 = degrees with=20 the leading firing again?
 
The pulley end keyway points = to 9.00=20 at TDC ( plug sides) on the housing closest to the = pulleys (=20 Front/ our rear) - is this what is referred to as No1=20 housing?
George (down = under) 
 
<snip>
In a message dated 04/26/2005 12:00 Central Daylight Time,=20 Lehanover writes:
<< In a message dated 04/25/2005 07:00 Central = Daylight Time,=20 jwvoto@itlnet.net = writes:
I can look into the spark plug hole and see the apex seal = go by, so=20 are you calling apex seal crossing leading plug TDC?
There are a number of gags to locate TDC close enough to = get the=20 engine to run.
(1)
Remove one spark plug from number one housing. Screw a = length of=20 hose into the plug hole. Put your tongue on the end of the hose. = Gently=20 turn over the engine. When you get a null, where there is no = pressure=20 and no suction on your tongue, that's TDC. Good to within a few = degrees.=20
(2)
Or,
Bend up a piece of welding filler rod so as to make a = pointer that=20 can touch a flywheel (flexplate) tooth. Bolt or clamp the wire = to the=20 rear iron.
Take both plugs out of number two rotor housing.
Turn the engine until you see an apex seal in the center of = the=20 trailing plug hole.
Bend the filler rod so that it points to the center of a = flywheel=20 tooth. Put a white paint drop on that tooth.
Turn the engine in the running direction, until that same = apex seal=20 appears in the center of the leading plug hole.
Put a paint drop on the tooth the rod is now pointing at. =
Count the teeth between the paint dots. Divide by 2.
The point half way between the two paint dots is TDC in the = number=20 one housing.
Good to within a few degrees.
Also, you can count the total number of teeth and divide = that=20 number into 360 to get the number of degrees per tooth. Paint = the=20 correct tooth yellow and make the rod a permanent piece, for = setting=20 accurate timing in an easy to see location.
(3)
Or,
(Similar to above)
Take both plugs out of number one.
Turn engine in running direction until an apex seal appears = in the=20 trailing plug hole.
Gently turn the engine backwards until an apex seal appears = in the=20 leading plug hole.
Half way between those two events is TDC. With practice, = accurate=20 enough to do by just feel and rocking back and forth by hand and = to find=20 TDC within a few degrees, or close enough to drop in the = distributor and=20 have the engine fire instantly and run fine.
(4)
If you used grease or Vaseline on the side seals, you can = have a=20 plug prepared with the center knocked out of it and a plug in = place with=20 a piece of brake line soldered through the center. Screw this = special=20 plug into the bottom plug hole. Push a length of plastic tubing = over the=20 piece of brake tubing. Pour auto trans fluid through the top = plug hole.=20 Reinstall the top plug. Hold the hose in the vertical. Turn the = engine=20 until the fluid level nulls.
That's TDC number one with a degree.
(5)
The flywheel end counter weight is centered between the = plugs on=20 number two rotor housing. That's TDC number one within about 10 = degrees.=20 But you can get good at it, and get more accurate.
(6)
If you have the front pulley bolt and washer off, looking = from the=20 front
pulley end,
the keyway in the 9:00 O'clock position is TDC number one = within a=20 few
degrees.
My TDC rig is for setting up port timings and requires a=20 disassembled
engine, so that won't help you. Good for inside of one = degree.=20
(6)
Quick and dirty.
Take out either plug from number one housing.
Wet a finger. Hold it gently over the empty plug hole. Turn = the=20 engine in
the running direction. When the air quits pushing past your = finger,=20 that's TDC
within 10 degrees or less.
Lynn E. Hanover
<snip>


 
On 9/19/07, bmears9413@aol.com = <bmears9413@aol.com>=20 wrote:=20
Changing=20 the subject a bit, I want to make sure i have my motor on TDC = to set=20 my timing marks on the flywheel. This is my plan, tell me what = you=20 think. I'm building a fitting to screw in the spark plug hole, = and=20 running a vacuum line to a small suringe (like a insulin = suringe). I=20 can eyeball the rotor location close to TDC, the install this=20 contraption and rotate the motor so the suringe moves out to = the end=20 and starts back in. then back the motor up again till the = suringe tops=20 out. I figure that outa be and accurate TDC. Whadda ya = think???=20

Bob Mears
Supermarine = Spitfire


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 >
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 1:16 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Strange = Ignition?

I do not believe that is a significant = factor,=20 either, Al.  After all, we're suppose to do our ignition = checks=20 on the ground before take off {:>).  My understanding = is that=20 best power on the 13B has ignition timing between 25-28 deg = BTDC, so=20 not surprising that the 20B would fall in that range = also. =20 Sounds reasonable to me.
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Al=20 Gietzen
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, = September 19,=20 2007 3:08 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 Strange Ignition?

 
I=20 wondered if perhaps one issue was that I was doing the = ignition=20 check static, on the ground; where the combination of RPM = and MAP=20 would be different than in the air.  But on checking = with=20 Tracy 's=20 spreadsheet on the timing settings, over a fairly broad = range above=20 about 4900 the timing is (should be) in the range of 26 to = 28=20 degrees BTDC.
 
Al
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail!
 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked = by AVG=20 Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: = 269.13.22/1015 -=20 Release Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 AM
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by = AVG Free=20 Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.25/1018 - = Release=20 Date: 19/09/2007 3:59 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - = Release Date:=20 20/09/2007 12:07 PM
 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C7FC2B.5EE50890--