X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2336371 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:21:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.139.136; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id q.cbd.1b4aecac (52617) for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mblk-d51 (mblk-d51.mblk.aol.com [205.188.212.235]) by cia-d11.mx.aol.com (v119.9) with ESMTP id MAILCIAD111-cd8946eefdcc2bc; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:21:00 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:21:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8C9C79029858D5E_A60_5D27_mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 30583 Received: from 65.161.241.3 by mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com (205.188.212.235) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:21:00 -0400 Message-Id: <8C9C79029858D5E-A60-2DBC@mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 205.188.212.235 X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8C9C79029858D5E_A60_5D27_mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sure can't Mark, I wasn't trying to impugn the RX-8 parts either. There are always a few idio= syncrasies with any part set.=A0I have seen parts not function properly beca= use they put out too strong a signal. On some of the older magneto=A0CDI 2 c= ycles I worked on the eletronic advance wouldn't work because the thyristor=20= trigger was always getting too strong a pulse. (A single wave rectified devi= ce) The solution was simple we doubled the gap which got the voltage to the=20= thyristor trigger back in the correct range. we then got 25=B0 of advance in= stead of 5=B0. The moral is to never give up, and keep a record of what you=20= have done so you don't cover the same ground twice. That is unless you want=20= to to verify the trouble. You then hope it's repeatable! Bill Jepson=A0=A0=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 1:27 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Bill,=20 I have not heard of any problems with the Renesis CAS in the RX-8's.=A0 I'm=20= not sure this qualifies as having a smaller signal.=A0 We measured approx.= =A030 volts at higher rpm.=A0 My engine has been running great ever since I=20= replaced the CAS bracket.=A0 I got my trigger wheel through Bob Mears, but h= ad to buy the whole assembly (hub, pulley and trigger wheel).=A0 But Bob's p= rice was very reasonable, and he even delivered it to my hangar.=A0 You can'= t beat that kind of service with a stick.=20 =A0 Mark =A0 On 9/17/07, wrjjrs@aol.com wrote:=20 Mark, I'm building a 20B also so I was interested in your problem. The renes= is CAS uses the small magnet/reluctor system right? We had many of this styl= e on the motorcycles, and they were more problematic than the moving magnet=20= type. Probably due to a smaller signal output. One of the systems that has b= een discussed here before, (the old mopar EI) had a bunch of metal plates cl= ose by. They must have used a stronger magnet!=20 Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:07 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =A0 Bob,=20 I tried to reply twice to your message but=A0the list server=A0didn't like t= he attachment.=A0 So, I'll try to explain it here. =A0 I got a hint from the shop manual, in the section on=A0ignition=A0where it t= alks about small filings of ferrous metal powder=A0adhering to the CAS and c= ausing problems with engine control.=A0 Sounded like it=A0could apply to a b= ig ferrous metal bracket too.=A0=A0In the end it was just a=A0hunch that pai= d off big time.=A0 So, the moral=A0of the story=A0is to keep ferrous metals=20= away from the CAS.=A0=A0=A0=20 =A0 Mark =A0 On 9/17/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20 I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find. =A0 Bob Mears =A0 =A0 On 9/17/07, Richard Sohn wrote:=20 Bob, =A0 you can not really meassure it, unless you use a setup intensionally looking= for this particular issue. Even than, you can only compare it to some other= setup. I have gone throu quite a bit of that using my own designed trigger=20= finger for the single rotor, using a pickup coil from the Mazda distributor=20= and the Renensis CAS. On the first design, the end was at 4500RPM.=20 The problem is the flux change rate, which is getting more critical at high=20= RPM. The safest approach is to have a hard look at the stock installation and cop= y that as much a possible. Do not get closer=A0 with any ferritic metal than= in the stock installation.=20 I should have caught Marks problem, but I was under the impression he was us= ing stock installation. The setup I am using on the single rotor is tested up to 8k with no problem.= =20 FWIW. =A0 =A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bmears9413@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys =A0 I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find. =A0 Bob Mears -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =A0 Dennis,=20 Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis timing gear.= =A0 The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still there.=A0 Just=20= in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't installed backwards nor was= it clocked incorrectly. =A0=20 Mark On 9/15/07, Dennis Haverlah wrote:=20 Mark, =A0Was the frequency of the teeth going by the wheel too high for the CAS? Dennis H. Mark Steitle wrote: Bob,=20 While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of my problem.= =A0 At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS to no avail.=A0=20 Mark=20 On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20 I haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your gonna tell us anyw= ay...eventually...but problems I've had before in race cars...plug wires run= ning parallel to each other, and too large of air gap in the pickup in the d= istributor.=A0=A0 Close???=20 Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Ed,=20 You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic ignition.=A0=20= (I wish I had someone to give me hints).=A0 Yes, the ignition timing was too= far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the problem.=A0 The c= oils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so=A0any individual coil isn't=A0firing any more o= ften than on a 2-rotor.=A0 So, what's causing the erratic ingition?=A0 That'= s the question.=20 =A0 Mark =A0 On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hey, No Fair!=A0Mark.=A0 =A0Most of us do not have a Renesis shop manual.= =A0 But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has two wires - I=20= get it - there is a wire missing {:>). =A0 =A0 So it sounds like the problem=A0was =A0indeed ignition - well, its almos= t always either fuel or spark causing a problem.=A0 So if fuel is more or le= ss ruled out it defaults to ignition.=A0 It probably wouldn't be a rev limit= er as they simply cut out above a certain rpm.=A0 So either your ignition ti= ming somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?)=A0 or else your ignit= ion was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the capability of the coils= to recharge between firings - unlikely in this case).=20 =A0 But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must say I'm out of id= eas. =A0 Ed =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =A0 Now Rusty!!!=A0 That's too obvious.=A0 ;-) =A0 OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my problem from th= e ignition section of=A0the Renesis shop manual.=A0=20 =A0 Mark=20 =A0 On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote:=20 OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to=A0my decision to change over= =A0from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS.=A0 I got that bright idea from=20= last year's rotary get together at Tracy's.=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 I've got it.=A0 YOU were the problem :-)=A0 =A0 Rusty=20 =A0 Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! =A0 =A0 Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! =A0 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 9/16/2007=20= 6:32 PM =A0 Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! =A0 ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http= ://mail.aol.com ----------MB_8C9C79029858D5E_A60_5D27_mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sure can't Mark,
I wasn't trying to impugn the RX-8 parts either. There are always a few= idiosyncrasies with any part set. I have seen parts not function prope= rly because they put out too strong a signal. On some of the older magneto&n= bsp;CDI 2 cycles I worked on the eletronic advance wouldn't work because the= thyristor trigger was always getting too strong a pulse. (A single wave rec= tified device) The solution was simple we doubled the gap which got the volt= age to the thyristor trigger back in the correct range. we then got 25=B0 of= advance instead of 5=B0. The moral is to never give up, and keep a record o= f what you have done so you don't cover the same ground twice. That is unles= s you want to to verify the trouble. You then hope it's repeatable!
Bill Jepson   


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 1:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

Bill,
I have not heard of any problems with the Renesis CAS in the RX-8's.&nb= sp; I'm not sure this qualifies as having a smaller signal.  We measure= d approx. 30 volts at higher rpm.  My engine has been running grea= t ever since I replaced the CAS bracket.  I got my trigger wheel throug= h Bob Mears, but had to buy the whole assembly (hub, pulley and trigger whee= l).  But Bob's price was very reasonable, and he even delivered it to m= y hangar.  You can't beat that kind of service with a stick.
 
Mark

 
On 9/17/07, wrjjrs@aol.com <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:=20
Mark, I'm building a 20B also so I w= as interested in your problem. The renesis CAS uses the small magnet/relucto= r system right? We had many of this style on the motorcycles, and they were=20= more problematic than the moving magnet type. Probably due to a smaller sign= al output. One of the systems that has been discussed here before, (the old=20= mopar EI) had a bunch of metal plates close by. They must have used a strong= er magnet!
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.= com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:07 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Bob,
I tried to reply twice to your message but the list server di= dn't like the attachment.  So, I'll try to explain it here.
 
I got a hint from the shop manual, in the section on ignition = ;where it talks about small filings of ferrous metal powder adhering to= the CAS and causing problems with engine control.  Sounded like it&nbs= p;could apply to a big ferrous metal bracket too.  In the end it w= as just a hunch that paid off big time.  So, the moral of the= story is to keep ferrous metals away from the CAS.    <= br>  
Mark
 
On 9/17/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20
I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find.
 
Bob Mears
 


 
On 9/17/07, Richa= rd Sohn <unicorn@gdsys.net&g= t; wrote:
Bob,
 
you can not really meassure it, unless you=20= use a setup intensionally looking for this particular issue. Even than, you=20= can only compare it to some other setup. I have gone throu quite a bit of th= at using my own designed trigger finger for the single rotor, using a pickup= coil from the Mazda distributor and the Renensis CAS. On the first design,=20= the end was at 4500RPM.
The problem is the flux change rate, which=20= is getting more critical at high RPM.
The safest approach is to have a hard look=20= at the stock installation and copy that as much a possible. Do not get close= r  with any ferritic metal than in the stock installation.
I should have caught Marks problem, but I w= as under the impression he was using stock installation.
The setup I am using on the single rotor is= tested up to 8k with no problem.
FWIW.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:36= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the=20= smart guys

 
I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find.
 
Bob Mears


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.= com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Dennis,

Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis timing gear.&n= bsp; The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still there.  J= ust in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't installed backwards nor= was it clocked incorrectly.  

Mark

On 9/15/07, Denni= s Haverlah <clouduster@au= stin.rr.com > wrote:=20
Mark,
 Was the frequency of the teeth going by the wheel too high for the CAS= ?

Dennis H.

Mark Steitle wrote:
Bob,

While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of my problem.&n= bsp; At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS to no avail.&nb= sp;

Mark

On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20
I haven't cheated and lo= oked at the manual.....since your gonna tell us anyway...eventually...but pr= oblems I've had before in race cars...plug wires running parallel to each ot= her, and too large of air gap in the pickup in the distributor.  =20= Close???

Bob Mears
Supermarine Spitfire


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.= com >
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic ignition= .  (I wish I had someone to give me hints).  Yes, the ignition tim= ing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the proble= m.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil isn't&nb= sp;firing any more often than on a 2-rotor.  So, what's causing the err= atic ingition?  That's the question.
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, Ed An= derson <eanderson@caroli= na.rr.com > wrote:=20
Hey, No Fair! Mark.   Most of us do n= ot have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see the old CS had three wire= s, the new one has two wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>).
 
  So it sounds like the problem was  = indeed ignition - well, its almost always either fuel or spark causing a pro= blem.  So if fuel is more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition.&nb= sp; It probably wouldn't be a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a cer= tain rpm.  So either your ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm= (too much advance?)  or else your ignition was erratic in its firing (= such as exceeding the capability of the coils to recharge between firings -=20= unlikely in this case).
 
But, without a shop manual to give me more insight,=20= I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
Rotary motors in aircraft
rusty@radrotary.com=20= > wrote:=20
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision to chang= e over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS.  I got that brigh= t idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's.    
 
I've got it.  YOU were th= e problem :-) 
 
Rusty


 
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: 9/16/2007=20= 6:32 PM

 
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 

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