X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from access.aic-fl.com ([207.30.253.2] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2335790 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:31:54 -0400 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.30.253.2; envelope-from=unicorn@gdsys.net Received: from main (gdsi-43.gdsys.net [207.30.255.43]) by access.aic-fl.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:27:28 -0500 Message-ID: <002001c7f948$320728c0$2bff1ecf@main> From: "Richard Sohn" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:31:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7F91E.489E7DB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7F91E.489E7DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, you can not really meassure it, unless you use a setup intensionally = looking for this particular issue. Even than, you can only compare it to = some other setup. I have gone throu quite a bit of that using my own = designed trigger finger for the single rotor, using a pickup coil from = the Mazda distributor and the Renensis CAS. On the first design, the end = was at 4500RPM. The problem is the flux change rate, which is getting more critical at = high RPM. The safest approach is to have a hard look at the stock installation and = copy that as much a possible. Do not get closer with any ferritic metal = than in the stock installation.=20 I should have caught Marks problem, but I was under the impression he = was using stock installation. The setup I am using on the single rotor is tested up to 8k with no = problem.=20 FWIW. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bmears9413@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find. Bob Mears -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Dennis,=20 Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis timing = gear. The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still there. = Just in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't installed = backwards nor was it clocked incorrectly. =20 Mark On 9/15/07, Dennis Haverlah wrote:=20 Mark, Was the frequency of the teeth going by the wheel too high for the = CAS? Dennis H. Mark Steitle wrote: Bob,=20 While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of my = problem. At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS to no = avail. =20 Mark=20 On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com wrote:=20 I haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your gonna = tell us anyway...eventually...but problems I've had before in race = cars...plug wires running parallel to each other, and too large of air = gap in the pickup in the distributor. Close???=20 Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys Ed,=20 You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic = ignition. (I wish I had someone to give me hints). Yes, the ignition = timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the = problem. The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil isn't = firing any more often than on a 2-rotor. So, what's causing the erratic = ingition? That's the question.=20 Mark =20 On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hey, No Fair! Mark. Most of us do not have a Renesis shop = manual. But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new one has two = wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>). So it sounds like the problem was indeed ignition - well, = its almost always either fuel or spark causing a problem. So if fuel is = more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition. It probably wouldn't be = a rev limiter as they simply cut out above a certain rpm. So either = your ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?) = or else your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the = capability of the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely in this = case).=20 But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must say = I'm out of ideas. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys=20 =20 Now Rusty!!! That's too obvious. ;-) OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my = problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. =20 Mark=20 =20 On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote:=20 OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision = to change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS. I got that = bright idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. =20 I've got it. YOU were the problem :-)=20 Rusty=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: = 9/16/2007 6:32 PM ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C7F91E.489E7DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
 
you can not really meassure it, unless = you use a=20 setup intensionally looking for this particular issue. Even than, you = can only=20 compare it to some other setup. I have gone throu quite a bit of that = using my=20 own designed trigger finger for the single rotor, using a pickup coil = from the=20 Mazda distributor and the Renensis CAS. On the first design, the end was = at=20 4500RPM.
The problem is the flux change rate, = which is=20 getting more critical at high RPM.
The safest approach is to have a hard = look at the=20 stock installation and copy that as much a possible. Do not get = closer =20 with any ferritic metal than in the stock installation.
I should have caught Marks problem, but = I was under=20 the impression he was using stock installation.
The setup I am using on the single = rotor is tested=20 up to 8k with no problem.
FWIW.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bmears9413@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, = 2007 9:36=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One = for the=20 smart guys

I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough = find.
 
Bob Mears


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark = Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart = guys

Dennis,=20

Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis = timing=20 gear.  The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still=20 there.  Just in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't = installed=20 backwards nor was it clocked incorrectly.  

Mark

On 9/15/07, Dennis=20 Haverlah <clouduster@austin.rr.com>= =20 wrote:=20
Mark,
 Was the = frequency of=20 the teeth going by the wheel too high for the CAS?

Dennis=20 H.

Mark Steitle wrote:
Bob,=20

While good things to check, neither of these were the = cause of my=20 problem.  At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the = CAS to=20 no avail. 

Mark

On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com = <bmears9413@aol.com> = wrote:=20
I=20 haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your gonna = tell us=20 anyway...eventually...but problems I've had before in race = cars...plug=20 wires running parallel to each other, and too large of air gap = in the=20 pickup in the distributor.   Close???

Bob=20 Mears
Supermarine Spitfire


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the = smart=20 guys

Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be = erratic=20 ignition.  (I wish I had someone to give me hints).  = Yes, the=20 ignition timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing = didn't=20 correct the problem.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, = so any=20 individual coil isn't firing any more often than on a=20 2-rotor.  So, what's causing the erratic ingition?  = That's the=20 question.
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 > wrote:=20
Hey, No Fair! Mark.  =  Most of us=20 do not have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see the old = CS had=20 three wires, the new one has two wires - I get it - there is a = wire=20 missing {:>).
 
  So it sounds like the = problem was=20  indeed ignition - well, its almost always either fuel or = spark=20 causing a problem.  So if fuel is more or less ruled out = it=20 defaults to ignition.  It probably wouldn't be a rev = limiter as=20 they simply cut out above a certain rpm.  So either your = ignition=20 timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advance?)  = or else=20 your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding the = capability of the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely = in this=20 case).
 
But, without a shop manual to give me = more=20 insight, I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
To:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent:=20 Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Now Rusty!!!  That's too obvious.  ;-)
 
OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be = causing my=20 problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop=20 manual. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy <rusty@radrotary.com = >=20 wrote:=20
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my = decision to change over from the original CAS to the = Renesis=20 CAS.  I got that bright idea from last year's rotary = get=20 together at Tracy's.    
 
I've got = it.  YOU=20 were the problem :-) 
 
Rusty=20 =


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL=20 = Mail!


Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - = Release Date:=20 9/16/2007 6:32 PM
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