X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail.fdic.gov ([167.176.6.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTPS id 2183563 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:06:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=167.176.6.5; envelope-from=brogers@fdic.gov DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; d=fdic.gov; s=fdic; c=simple; q=dns; t=1184706349; x=1184792749; h=from:date:subject:message-id:content-class:content-type; b=xBEhbdpviocqufHjWQOPCqnUxnJv9uDNI2HRrOoZ8Rn6bRMzu3qj450LIchEot4w0QUp4HfHlZ1Y8gE5eefYbA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7C8B6.34EA7660" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Mustang II CG? Was [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: <15839C662A43B844B6E393DBFEAA90BF06AAF1DD@dalexc101p.prod.fdic.gov> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Mustang II CG? Was [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question thread-index: AcfImp6lYEgP3p1oSKKOFKjtrraaCwAF28tg References: From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Return-Path: BRogers@FDIC.gov X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2007 21:05:30.0707 (UTC) FILETIME=[354B2A30:01C7C8B6] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7C8B6.34EA7660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, =20 As you correctly observed, the engine is mounted further from the firewall than normal. The answer is a lesson what happens when one deviates from the plans. Since I have a water-cooled engine, I use the hot water from the engine for cabin heat through a standard auto heater. The unit (with a fan) is just aft of the firewall, centered in front of the rudder pedals. This placement required the rudder pedals to be moved a little further aft, which in turn, required the seats to be a little further aft. This is all OK, because with the T-18 canopy, the instrument panel can be moved back about 2 inches, which gives more room for radios and instruments. However, the baggage area behind the seats becomes very small (and my wife was complaining that there was not enough room for baggage to start with). My solution was to open up the baggage compartment to the next bulkhead, which gives a lot of room, but shifts the CG further aft. To compensate for all of this, the engine must be moved forward. =20 I mounted the engine on the airframe with a temporary engine mount, with all known accessories and weights installed, and weighed the plane. Then, I found the CG of the engine FWF and weighed it separately. I was able to calculate where the engine should be placed to get the correct CG and establish the limits for fuel, baggage, and passengers. By calculation, the engine needed to be where it now is in order to balance the other things that moved the CG aft. Based on the amount of weight currently on the tail wheel, it appears to be just about right, but I have to do another weight and balance when everything is finished to be absolutely sure. =20 This is what happens when you deviate from the plans. But, I guess using a non-certified rotary engine is a pretty big deviation in and of itself. One good deviation deserves another, I always say. =20 =20 Bob =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Mustang II CG? Was [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question =20 Hi Bob, =20 Good to hear from you. Nice looking installation, neat turbo set up. Should make the Mustang exceed Ve going straight up {:>) =20 But, I do have a question - the engine + Turbo seems to be pretty far out from the firewall, what does that do to your CG?=20 =20 The reason I ask is I have a 13B in my RV-6A and the water pump pulley is approx 8" from the firewall and that put me a tiny bit nose-heavy. Well, at least until I took out 30 lbs of battery and painted the aircraft. I did build a bit stout which of course added to the weight FWF. =20 But, must admit, I'm not familiar with the engine installation in a Mustang II. So how far out is the water pump pulley from your firewall? and is that approx where a 360 lycoming would sit? in a Mustang? =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html =20 I ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rogers, Bob J. =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question =20 Yes, it has an aftermarket Turbonetics 60-1 turbo with external wastegate and 1.15 A/R. I can vary the boost by 10 psi from the cockpit with a manual control regulator. It remains to be seen how well it all works. =20 Bob =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 11:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question =20 Look'n good Bob. Best I can tell you've got a turbo 13B under the cowl. Is that correct? Looks like we should have quite a showing at the next Rotary Roundup and/or Sun-n-Fun. =20 =20 BTW, one nice thing that Ron Gowan did was to write a letter to the FAA stating that I built the a/c and recommended that I be granted a repairman's certificate. Not sure if it is necessary, but it sure won't hurt either.=20 =20 Mark =09 =20 On 7/16/07, Rogers, Bob J. wrote:=20 Thanks Mark, =20 Yes, I live in Plano, TX and have a hangar at the McKinney municipal airport. You can see and read about my project at http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10 =20 I am currently working on the engine baffling. Everything else is pretty much done. But as you know, it is all the remaining little details that take forever.=20 =20 Bob =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question=20 =20 His phone number is 817/975-2138. Email is rongowan@yahoo.com. I take it you live in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area? =20 =20 Mark =09 =20 On 7/12/07, Rogers, Bob J. < BRogers@fdic.gov > wrote:=20 Mark, =20 I would like to use Ron Gowan as my DAR when the time comes to have my rotary powered Mustang II inspected (within the next year, I hope). Do you have a phone number for Ron that I could call to contact him?=20 =20 Thanks, =20 Bob Rogers =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:08 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question=20 =09 =20 Chris,=20 The only thing he asked me to do was pay for his gas to fly down. He indicated that $10 would suffice, but we both know that that wouldn't hardly get him to the runup area. Due to all the heavy rains and overcast skies, we had trouble getting things coordinated. He flies for Delta out of Atlanta from Thursday through Sunday. He normally flies back from Atlanta on Sunday or Monday. Instead, he flew into Austin, rented a car and drove down to Lockhart, then drove north to Dallas afterwards. I gave him $150 to cover the car rental and gas. I had planned on taking him to have BBQ, but he was in a hurry to head home. He said that he does it as a service to the EAA community. It sure beats the local DAR's prices. =20 =20 Mark =20 =09 =20 On 7/9/07, Christopher Barber < CBarber@texasattorney.net > wrote:=20 Thanks for the update, success and the report on Ron Gowen. He is who I plan to call first as I have not only met him, he let me fly from the back seat of one of his Vari-EZ's when I was up in Denton visiting Alex a few years ago. I think he either has or had a rotory powered EZ (even though the one I flew in had a Lyc). The day I was there, he had just recieved a new Marconni PSRU. He was very pleased with it.=20 =20 If you don't mind, would you please share the details of his cost and expectations as to come for a visit? =20 Congrats on turning your piles of fiberglass, metal and foam into a real honest to goodness flying machine. =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:59 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question=20 =09 =20 Kelly,=20 =20 Thanks for the words of encouragement. The rains have stopped here in central Texas, the sun is once again shining, and the doves returned to the ark with twigs in their mouths. The DAR came out to the airport today in his kayak and did the final inspection on my Lancair ES/20B project. And he actually signed it off!!! So, it is officially an "airplane" and no longer a "project". How about that? Its been a long haul, but now the fun begins... as soon as I get some recurrency training to bring me up to speed. He said I did a good job with much attention to detail, then he took my money and left. ;-) I'll should get the paperwork in the mail in a few days. Soon I'll be starting the 40-hour testing phase. I had asked for a 200 mile radius, but that would have put me over the Houston area, so he cut it down to 100 miles. He said that the FAA frowns on more than that, especially with auto conversions. So, I'lll have to make do with a 100 mile radius. =20 =20 If anyone wants/needs a DAR with rotary experience, and you're in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, I would highly recommend this inspector. His name is Ron Gowan. He has 500 hrs PIC flying a rotary. He also has composites experience. I felt that he would be a good choice even if he didn't have extensive composites experience. =20 He said the two biggest areas to pay very close attention is the psru and the cooling system. He said that the rotary engine is rock solid. (That really impressed the old timers at the airport.)=20 =20 So, all you guys working away month after month, keep the faith, there is a glorious day coming. ;-) =20 Mark S. =09 =20 On 7/7/07, Kelly Troyer < keltro@att.net > wrote:=20 Mark, Pulling for you !! You will certainly have one going and beautiful aircraft........Will absolutely be a plus for the Rotary movement in general and a worthy addition to the somewhat rare 20B engine group....... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =09 =09 =09 =20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Mark Steitle" < msteitle@gmail.com >: --------------=20 =09 > Mark Steitle wrote: > >> Here's a non-rotary question for the group. The DAR will be=20 >> coming out Monday morning to inspect my project. Hopefully it=20 >> will qualify as an airplane once he's done. He mentioned to me to >> be sure to have my airframe logbook so that he can make his=20 >> required log entry. (Here's the problem.) I don't have a logbook=20 >> yet. But according to an A&P on the Lancair list, the logbook can >> be done in 3-ring binder format, or even on computer. I would=20 >> like to make one up in the 3-ring binder format, but don't have=20 >> any idea of what's required. Anyone on the list been through thi s >> and have a page format they are willing to share? Mark S.=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7C8B6.34EA7660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed,

 

As you correctly observed, the = engine is mounted further from the firewall than normal.  The answer is a lesson what = happens when one deviates from the plans.  Since I have a water-cooled engine, I use the hot water from the engine for = cabin heat through a standard auto heater.  The unit (with a fan) is just = aft of the firewall, centered in front of the rudder pedals.   This placement required the = rudder pedals to be moved a little further aft, which in turn, required the seats to = be a little further aft.  This = is all OK, because with the T-18 canopy, the instrument panel can be moved back about 2 inches, which gives more room for = radios and instruments.  However, the = baggage area behind the seats becomes very small (and my wife was complaining that = there was not enough room for baggage to start with).  My solution was to open up the = baggage compartment to the next bulkhead, which gives a lot of room, but shifts = the CG further aft.  To compensate = for all of this, the engine must be moved forward.

 

I mounted the engine on the = airframe with a temporary engine mount, with all known accessories and weights = installed, and weighed the plane.  Then, I = found the CG of the engine FWF and weighed it separately.  I was able to calculate where = the engine should be placed to get the correct CG and establish the limits for = fuel, baggage, and passengers.  By = calculation, the engine needed to be where it now is in order to balance the other things = that moved the CG aft.   Based on the amount of weight currently on the tail wheel, it appears to be just = about right, but I have to do another weight and balance when everything is = finished to be absolutely sure.

 

This is what happens when you = deviate from the plans.  But, I guess = using a non-certified rotary engine is a pretty big deviation in and of = itself.  One good deviation deserves = another, I always say.  =

 

Bob

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, = 2007 10:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Mustang II CG? Was [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question

 

Hi Bob,

 

Good to hear from you.  Nice looking = installation, neat turbo set up.  Should make the Mustang exceed Ve going straight up = {:>)

 

 But, I do have a question - the engine + Turbo = seems to be pretty far out from the firewall, what does that do to your = CG? 

 

 The reason I ask is I have a 13B in my RV-6A = and the water pump pulley is approx 8" from the firewall and that put me a = tiny bit nose-heavy.  Well, at least until I took out 30 lbs of battery = and painted the aircraft.  I did build a bit stout which of course = added to the weight FWF.

 

But, must admit, I'm not familiar with the engine installation in a Mustang II.   So how far out is the water = pump pulley from your firewall? and is that approx where a 360 lycoming would = sit? in a Mustang?

 

Ed

 

 

I

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: Monday, = July 16, 2007 12:58 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook Question

 

Yes, it has an aftermarket = Turbonetics 60-1 turbo with external wastegate and 1.15 A/R.  I can vary the boost by 10 psi = from the cockpit with a manual control regulator.   It remains to be seen how well it all = works.

 

Bob

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, July 16, = 2007 11:25 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Logbook Question

 

Look'n good Bob.  Best I can tell you've got a turbo 13B = under the cowl.  Is that correct?  Looks like we should have quite a = showing at the next Rotary Roundup and/or Sun-n-Fun.  =

 

BTW, one nice thing that Ron Gowan did was to write a letter to = the FAA stating that I built the a/c and recommended that I be granted a = repairman's certificate.  Not sure if it is necessary, but it sure won't hurt = either.

 

Mark

 

On 7/16/07, Rogers, Bob J. <BRogers@fdic.gov> wrote:

Thanks Mark,

 

Yes, I live in Plano, = TX and have a hangar at the McKinney municipal airport.  = You can see and read about my project at http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D= 10

 

I am currently working on the engine baffling.  Everything else is pretty much done.  But as you know, it is = all the remaining little details that take forever. =

 

Bob

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Thursday, July 12, = 2007 6:24 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Logbook Question

 

His phone number is 817/975-2138.  Email is rongowan@yahoo.com.  I take it you live in = the Dallas/Ft. = Worth area? 

 

Mark

 

On 7/12/07, Rogers, Bob J. = < = BRogers@fdic.gov> wrote:

Mark,

 

I would like to use Ron Gowan as my DAR when the time = comes to have my rotary powered Mustang II inspected (within the next year, I = hope).  Do you have a phone number for Ron that I could call to contact = him?

 

Thanks,

 

Bob Rogers

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:08 = PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook = Question


 

Chris,

The only thing he asked me to do was pay for his gas to fly down.  He = indicated that $10 would suffice, but we both know that that wouldn't hardly get = him to the runup area.  Due to all the heavy rains and overcast skies, we = had trouble getting things coordinated.  He flies for Delta out of = Atlanta from Thursday through Sunday.  He normally flies back from Atlanta on Sunday or Monday.  = Instead, he flew into Austin, rented a car = and drove down to Lockhart, then drove north to Dallas afterwards.  I gave him $150 to cover the car rental and gas.  I had planned on taking him to have BBQ, but he was in a hurry = to head home.  He said that he does it as a service to the EAA = community.  It sure beats the local DAR's prices.   =

 

Mark   

 

On 7/9/07, Christopher = Barber < CBarber@texasattorney.net > wrote:

Thanks for the update, success and the report on Ron Gowen.  He is who I = plan to call first as I have not only met him, he let me fly from the back seat = of one of his Vari-EZ's when I was up in Denton visiting Alex a few years = ago.  I think he either has or had a rotory powered EZ (even though the one I = flew in had a Lyc).  The day I was there, he had just recieved a new = Marconni PSRU.  He was very pleased with it.

 

If you don't mind, would you please share the details of his cost and = expectations as to come for a visit?

 

Congrats on turning your piles of fiberglass, metal and foam into a real honest = to goodness flying machine.

 

All the best,

 

Chris Barber

Houston

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:59 = PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Logbook = Question


 

Kelly,

 

Thanks for the words of encouragement.  The rains = have stopped here in central Texas, the sun is once again shining, and the doves returned to = the ark with twigs in their mouths.  The DAR came out to the airport today = in his kayak and did the final inspection on my Lancair ES/20B project.  And he actually signed it off!!!  So, it = is officially an "airplane" and no longer a = "project".  How about that?  Its been a long haul, but now the fun = begins... as soon as I get some recurrency training to bring me up to speed.  He said I did a good job with much attention to detail, then he = took my money and left.  ;-)  I'll should get the paperwork in the mail in a few days.  Soon I'll be starting the = 40-hour testing phase.  I had asked for a 200 mile radius, but that would = have put me over the Houston area, so he cut it down to 100 miles.  He said that the FAA frowns = on more than that, especially with auto conversions.  So, I'lll have = to make do with a 100 mile radius. 

 

If anyone wants/needs a DAR with rotary experience, and you're in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, I would = highly recommend this inspector.  His name is Ron Gowan.  He has 500 = hrs PIC flying a rotary.  He also has composites experience.  I = felt that he would be a good choice even if he didn't have extensive = composites experience. 

He said the two biggest areas to pay very close attention is the psru and the = cooling system.  He said that the rotary engine is rock solid. (That really impressed the old timers at the airport.)

 

So, all you guys working away month after month, keep the faith, there is a = glorious day coming. ;-)

 

Mark S.

 

On 7/7/07, Kelly Troyer = < keltro@att.net> = wrote:

Mark,

   Pulling for you  !!  You will certainly have one going = and

beautiful aircraft........Will absolutely be a plus for the = Rotary

movement in general and a worthy addition to the = somewhat

rare 20B engine group.......

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 

 

-------------- Original message from "Mark Steitle" < = msteitle@gmail.com>: --------------

> Mark Steitle wrote:
>
>> Here's a non-rotary question for the group.  The DAR = will be
>> coming out Monday morning to inspect my = project.  Hopefully it
>> will qualify as an airplane once he's done.  He = mentioned to me to
>> be sure to have my airframe logbook so that he can make his =
>> required log entry.  (Here's the = problem.)  I don't have a logbook
>> yet.  But according to an A&P on the Lancair = list, the logbook can
>> be done in 3-ring binder format, or even on = computer.  I would
>> like to make one up in the 3-ring binder format, but don't have =
>> any idea of what's required.  Anyone on the list been through thi s
>> and have a page format they are willing to = share?  Mark S.

 

 

 

 

 

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