Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.93.67.84] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.5) with ESMTP id 2626587 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:35:42 -0400 Received: from o7y6b5 (clt78-020.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.20]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.2) with SMTP id h971XMW0019616 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006001c38c72$dbc9c620$1702a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mill/Lathe tools Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:32:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01C38C51.547CA3C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C38C51.547CA3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Mike I understand the points you are making and since you have been there = and I have not can hardly argue otherwise. While I certainly agree = there may come a time when if that #%^$@# machine had 1/2" more mill = head clearance........ But, given my needs, I would probably then just = farm out that particular job. If you can afford the biggest and best and have a need for it, how = could anyone argue against it. But, until I can justify (hummmm wonder = what project would justify a Bridgeport?) You have provide a lot of sound advice for anyone consider a machine = tool and the list has benefited from you experience and viewpoint. =20 Thanks for taking the time Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael D. Callahan=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 9:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mill/Lathe tools "My 20 year old Chinese drill press, cutoff saw and band saw do not = have on bit of plastic on them and are ugly, but despite being abused = for close to 3 decades just keep on working." I totally agree with you on these specific machines, Ed. I have, = and the museum also has, a chinese drill press and chinese bandsaws. = Superb acurracy is not the hallmark of these types of machines, so close = is just fine in this case. I would also advise most folks to get a = Chinese bench vise and a Chinese bench grinder. They are quite = sufficient and I would not advise anyone to buy anything else for home = use. Drill presses especially are subject to SEVERE abuse in most = shops. I wouldn't buy a used one unless I knew its condition and could = give it a thorough going over. That said, I'd trade my chinese one for a = good (key word being GOOD) 40 yr old used Clausing drill press in a = split second! I use the mill as a drill press if any degree of accuracy = at all is required. When talking the high end machines, like mills, lathes and such, I = stick by the "bigger is better" motto. I have experienced firsthand the = frustration of trying to work on a very small piece that missed fitting = in the machine by a fraction of an inch too many times. It still = happens, even with bigger machines, but not nearly as often. Your machine is a LOT better than that crappy Smithy I had. It has = a lot more room on the table, and under the spindle, but the basic = design isn't far removed. The extra rods no doubt help keep the head = from twisting, but they are simply not comparable to a cast iron box, = 15x15" square with 2" thick walls. THAT'S how a milling machine MUST be = made to prevent chatter and flexing of the column. You also will NEVER = find yourself saying, "Gosh I wish I didn't have this much extra room = under the spindle, or travel on the table." It's like too much = horsepower on a plane... you don't HAVE to use it all, but when you need = it, it sure is handy. I remember the day that 12,000lb, 24x72", 25hp American Pacemaker = lathe showed up at the museum. I thanked the guy profusely for the = donation while secretly asking myself..."What the HELL am I ever going = to do with THAT??!!" After I had that machine all hooked up and cleaned up, I chucked = under my breath the day I was using a cutoff tool to take the top off a = Mazda air conditioner dryer to make a burp-bottle for the 13B. The power = was WAY overkill for the job and the machine was MUCH bigger than you = would think necessary, however, I could fit the entire dryer into the = hole in the spindle, so I only had about 2" sticking out past the chuck = jaws. No wobble, no hangups, no problems. There was not another more = perfect machine to do that little simple job. Sure beats trying to take = it off with a pipe cutter or hacksaw. Welding it back up will be a snap = as both sides are already straight and the cut is as clean as if it were = done with a surgeon's scalpel. Another example showed up a few weeks later when a buddy's bandsaw = had the idler wheel bearing gall up. It was chinese, so the bushing was = metric. He needed it bored out to 1" so he could go down to Motion and = get a $0.25 bronze bushing for it, instead of trying to custom order the = metric one (I also had to make him a new shaft as it was shot, too). The = wheel was 14" in diameter. I chucked it up and was finished with the job = sooner than I could have found a reamer, set up the drill press and then = had it bounce all over the place and end up with the resulting hole = triangular or pentagonal due to slop in the spindle. I bored it 31/32 = and then used a heavy boring bar to finish the ID. Final fit was within = .0005" Without that machine, it would have been a PITA and the bearing = fit would have been sloppy. When I found the Van Norman #6, I thought I would NEVER need a = bigger mill. I soon realized how limited even it was. I jumped at a = chance to get a Van Norman 22L, with nearly twice the travel and table = size. It is much better, but it's huge. I would probably have turned it = down if it had been offer to us before I realized the shortcomings of = the #6. Buy as big a machine as you can fit in your shop. Buy a bigger = machine than you think you will need. Buy an old used American machine = before you buy a new import (if you can afford new American machine, = more power to you!). Buy a floor machine instead of a bench machine, = unless the bench machine has the original cabinet or stand with it. Buy = a lathe first. Buy a BIG lathe (you will be glad you did). Get somone = who knows what they are looking at to go with you if you don't know what = you are looking for, especially on used machines. Don't be afraid to = spend as much or more money on a used American machine, they hold their = value extremely well. A Bridgeport mill or South Bend lathe that costs = $2000 can be sold tomorrow for $2000. A brand new import machine that = costs $2000 is worth $1300 tomorrow, if you are lucky. If a 3in1 fits your needs, is the biggest thing you can fit in = your shop, and is the most expensive machine you can afford, by all = means get one! It is better than a soupspoon and an icepick for removing = metal! I promise you, though.... The first time you just can't fit that = little part in your machine and you have to take it over to somebody = else, who puts it in his Bridgeport with room to spare, and then cuts it = like it was mozzerella cheeze, taking a 1/4" at a pass and leaving a = mirror finish with the checkerboard crosshatching from the cutter, = you'll be in the market for a good mill. Been there, done that. Mike C. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C38C51.547CA3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok Mike
 
    I understand the = points you are=20 making and since you have been there and I have not can hardly argue=20 otherwise.  While I certainly agree there may come a time when if=20  that #%^$@#  machine had 1/2" more mill head = clearance........ =20 But, given my needs, I would probably then just farm out that particular = job.
 
    If you can afford = the biggest=20 and best and have a need for it, how could anyone argue against = it.  But,=20 until I can justify (hummmm wonder what project would justify a=20 Bridgeport?)
 
You have provide a lot of sound advice = for anyone=20 consider a machine tool and the list has benefited from you experience = and=20 viewpoint. 
 
Thanks for taking the time
 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael D. Callahan =
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 = 9:16=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mill/Lathe=20 tools

"My 20 year old Chinese drill press, cutoff=20 saw and band saw do not have on bit of plastic on them and are = ugly, but=20 despite being abused for close to 3  decades just keep on=20 working."
 
    I totally agree with you on = these=20 specific machines, Ed. I have, and the museum also has, a chinese = drill press=20 and chinese bandsaws. Superb acurracy is not the hallmark of these = types=20 of machines, so close is just fine in this case. I would also = advise most=20 folks to get a Chinese bench vise and a Chinese bench grinder. = They are=20 quite sufficient and I would not advise anyone to buy anything else = for home=20 use.
    Drill presses especially are = subject to=20 SEVERE abuse in most shops. I wouldn't buy a used one unless I knew = its=20 condition and could give it a thorough going over. That said, I'd = trade my=20 chinese one for a good (key word being GOOD) 40 yr old used = Clausing=20 drill press in a split second! I use the mill as a drill press if any = degree=20 of accuracy at all is required.
    When talking the high end = machines, like=20 mills, lathes and such, I stick by the "bigger is better" motto. I = have=20 experienced firsthand the frustration of trying to work on a very = small piece=20 that missed fitting in the machine by a fraction of an inch too many = times. It=20 still happens, even with bigger machines, but not nearly as=20 often.
    Your machine is a LOT better = than that=20 crappy Smithy I had. It has a lot more room on the table, and under = the=20 spindle, but the basic design isn't far removed. The extra rods no = doubt help=20 keep the head from twisting, but they are simply not comparable to a = cast iron=20 box, 15x15" square with 2" thick walls. THAT'S how a milling machine = MUST be=20 made to prevent chatter and flexing of the column. You also will NEVER = find=20 yourself saying, "Gosh I wish I didn't have this much extra room under = the=20 spindle, or travel on the table." It's like too much horsepower on a = plane...=20 you don't HAVE to use it all, but when you need it, it sure is=20 handy.
    I remember the day that = 12,000lb, 24x72",=20 25hp American Pacemaker lathe showed up at the museum. I thanked the = guy=20 profusely for the donation while secretly asking myself..."What the = HELL am I=20 ever going to do with THAT??!!"
    After I had that = machine all=20 hooked up and cleaned up, I chucked under my breath the = day I was=20 using a cutoff tool to take the top off a Mazda air = conditioner=20 dryer to make a burp-bottle for the 13B. The power was WAY overkill = for the=20 job and the machine was MUCH bigger than you would think necessary, = however, I=20 could fit the entire dryer into the hole in the spindle, so I = only had=20 about 2" sticking out past the chuck jaws. No wobble, no hangups, no = problems.=20 There was not another more perfect machine to do that little simple = job. Sure=20 beats trying to take it off with a pipe cutter or hacksaw. Welding it = back up=20 will be a snap as both sides are already straight and the = cut is as=20 clean as if it were done with a surgeon's scalpel.
    Another example showed up a few = weeks=20 later when a buddy's bandsaw had the idler wheel bearing gall up. = It was=20 chinese, so the bushing was metric. He needed it bored out to 1" so he = could=20 go down to Motion and get a $0.25 bronze bushing for it, instead of = trying to=20 custom order the metric one (I also had to make him a new shaft as = it was=20 shot, too). The wheel was 14" in diameter. I chucked it up and was = finished=20 with the job sooner than I could have found a reamer, set up the drill = press=20 and then had it bounce all over the place and end up with the = resulting=20 hole triangular or pentagonal due to slop in the spindle. I bored it = 31/32 and=20 then used a heavy boring bar to finish the ID. Final fit was within = .0005"=20 Without that machine, it would have been a PITA and the bearing fit = would have=20 been sloppy.
    When I found the Van Norman #6, = I thought=20 I would NEVER need a bigger mill. I soon realized how limited even it = was. I=20 jumped at a chance to get a Van Norman 22L, with nearly twice the = travel and=20 table size. It is much better, but it's huge. I would probably have = turned it=20 down if it had been offer to us before I realized the shortcomings of = the=20 #6.
    Buy as big a machine as = you can fit=20 in your shop. Buy a bigger machine than you think you will need. Buy = an=20 old used American machine before you buy a new import (if you can = afford=20 new American machine, more power to you!). Buy a floor machine instead = of a=20 bench machine, unless the bench machine has the original cabinet or = stand with=20 it. Buy a lathe first. Buy a BIG lathe (you will be glad you did). Get = somone=20 who knows what they are looking at to go with you if you don't know = what you=20 are looking for, especially on used machines. Don't be afraid to spend = as much=20 or more money on a used American machine, they hold their value = extremely=20 well. A Bridgeport mill or South Bend lathe that costs $2000 can be = sold=20 tomorrow for $2000. A brand new import machine that costs $2000 is = worth $1300=20 tomorrow, if you are lucky.
    If a 3in1 fits your needs, = is the=20 biggest thing you can fit in your shop, and is the most expensive = machine you=20 can afford, by all means get one! It is better than a soupspoon = and an=20 icepick for removing metal! I promise you, though.... The first time = you just=20 can't fit that little part in your machine and you have to take it = over to=20 somebody else, who puts it in his Bridgeport with room to spare, and = then cuts=20 it like it was mozzerella cheeze, taking a 1/4" at a pass and leaving = a mirror=20 finish with the checkerboard crosshatching from the cutter, you'll be = in the=20 market for a good mill. Been there, done that.  Mike=20 C.
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