Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.115] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.5) with ESMTP id 2626563 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:18:03 -0400 Received: from unknown (161.birmingham-06-07rs.al.dial-access.att.net[12.86.90.161]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003100701174911100p5r5pe>; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:17:51 +0000 Message-ID: <005a01c38c70$a166cac0$a15a560c@unknown> From: "Michael D. Callahan" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mill/Lathe tools Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:16:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01C38C46.B5AE3C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C38C46.B5AE3C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "My 20 year old Chinese drill press, cutoff saw and band saw do not have = on bit of plastic on them and are ugly, but despite being abused for = close to 3 decades just keep on working." I totally agree with you on these specific machines, Ed. I have, and = the museum also has, a chinese drill press and chinese bandsaws. Superb = acurracy is not the hallmark of these types of machines, so close is = just fine in this case. I would also advise most folks to get a Chinese = bench vise and a Chinese bench grinder. They are quite sufficient and I = would not advise anyone to buy anything else for home use. Drill presses especially are subject to SEVERE abuse in most shops. = I wouldn't buy a used one unless I knew its condition and could give it = a thorough going over. That said, I'd trade my chinese one for a good = (key word being GOOD) 40 yr old used Clausing drill press in a split = second! I use the mill as a drill press if any degree of accuracy at all = is required. When talking the high end machines, like mills, lathes and such, I = stick by the "bigger is better" motto. I have experienced firsthand the = frustration of trying to work on a very small piece that missed fitting = in the machine by a fraction of an inch too many times. It still = happens, even with bigger machines, but not nearly as often. Your machine is a LOT better than that crappy Smithy I had. It has a = lot more room on the table, and under the spindle, but the basic design = isn't far removed. The extra rods no doubt help keep the head from = twisting, but they are simply not comparable to a cast iron box, 15x15" = square with 2" thick walls. THAT'S how a milling machine MUST be made to = prevent chatter and flexing of the column. You also will NEVER find = yourself saying, "Gosh I wish I didn't have this much extra room under = the spindle, or travel on the table." It's like too much horsepower on a = plane... you don't HAVE to use it all, but when you need it, it sure is = handy. I remember the day that 12,000lb, 24x72", 25hp American Pacemaker = lathe showed up at the museum. I thanked the guy profusely for the = donation while secretly asking myself..."What the HELL am I ever going = to do with THAT??!!" After I had that machine all hooked up and cleaned up, I chucked = under my breath the day I was using a cutoff tool to take the top off a = Mazda air conditioner dryer to make a burp-bottle for the 13B. The power = was WAY overkill for the job and the machine was MUCH bigger than you = would think necessary, however, I could fit the entire dryer into the = hole in the spindle, so I only had about 2" sticking out past the chuck = jaws. No wobble, no hangups, no problems. There was not another more = perfect machine to do that little simple job. Sure beats trying to take = it off with a pipe cutter or hacksaw. Welding it back up will be a snap = as both sides are already straight and the cut is as clean as if it were = done with a surgeon's scalpel. Another example showed up a few weeks later when a buddy's bandsaw = had the idler wheel bearing gall up. It was chinese, so the bushing was = metric. He needed it bored out to 1" so he could go down to Motion and = get a $0.25 bronze bushing for it, instead of trying to custom order the = metric one (I also had to make him a new shaft as it was shot, too). The = wheel was 14" in diameter. I chucked it up and was finished with the job = sooner than I could have found a reamer, set up the drill press and then = had it bounce all over the place and end up with the resulting hole = triangular or pentagonal due to slop in the spindle. I bored it 31/32 = and then used a heavy boring bar to finish the ID. Final fit was within = .0005" Without that machine, it would have been a PITA and the bearing = fit would have been sloppy. When I found the Van Norman #6, I thought I would NEVER need a = bigger mill. I soon realized how limited even it was. I jumped at a = chance to get a Van Norman 22L, with nearly twice the travel and table = size. It is much better, but it's huge. I would probably have turned it = down if it had been offer to us before I realized the shortcomings of = the #6. Buy as big a machine as you can fit in your shop. Buy a bigger = machine than you think you will need. Buy an old used American machine = before you buy a new import (if you can afford new American machine, = more power to you!). Buy a floor machine instead of a bench machine, = unless the bench machine has the original cabinet or stand with it. Buy = a lathe first. Buy a BIG lathe (you will be glad you did). Get somone = who knows what they are looking at to go with you if you don't know what = you are looking for, especially on used machines. Don't be afraid to = spend as much or more money on a used American machine, they hold their = value extremely well. A Bridgeport mill or South Bend lathe that costs = $2000 can be sold tomorrow for $2000. A brand new import machine that = costs $2000 is worth $1300 tomorrow, if you are lucky. If a 3in1 fits your needs, is the biggest thing you can fit in your = shop, and is the most expensive machine you can afford, by all means get = one! It is better than a soupspoon and an icepick for removing metal! I = promise you, though.... The first time you just can't fit that little = part in your machine and you have to take it over to somebody else, who = puts it in his Bridgeport with room to spare, and then cuts it like it = was mozzerella cheeze, taking a 1/4" at a pass and leaving a mirror = finish with the checkerboard crosshatching from the cutter, you'll be in = the market for a good mill. Been there, done that. Mike C. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C38C46.B5AE3C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"My 20 year old Chinese drill press, cutoff = saw and=20 band saw do not have on bit of plastic on them and are ugly, but despite = being=20 abused for close to 3  decades just keep on = working."
 
    I totally agree with you on these = specific=20 machines, Ed. I have, and the museum also has, a chinese drill press and = chinese=20 bandsaws. Superb acurracy is not the hallmark of these types = of machines,=20 so close is just fine in this case. I would also advise most folks to = get a=20 Chinese bench vise and a Chinese bench grinder. They are quite = sufficient=20 and I would not advise anyone to buy anything else for home = use.
    Drill presses especially are = subject to=20 SEVERE abuse in most shops. I wouldn't buy a used one unless I knew its=20 condition and could give it a thorough going over. That said, I'd trade = my=20 chinese one for a good (key word being GOOD) 40 yr old used = Clausing drill=20 press in a split second! I use the mill as a drill press if any degree = of=20 accuracy at all is required.
    When talking the high end = machines, like=20 mills, lathes and such, I stick by the "bigger is better" motto. I have=20 experienced firsthand the frustration of trying to work on a very small = piece=20 that missed fitting in the machine by a fraction of an inch too many = times. It=20 still happens, even with bigger machines, but not nearly as = often.
    Your machine is a LOT better than = that=20 crappy Smithy I had. It has a lot more room on the table, and under the = spindle,=20 but the basic design isn't far removed. The extra rods no doubt help = keep the=20 head from twisting, but they are simply not comparable to a cast iron = box,=20 15x15" square with 2" thick walls. THAT'S how a milling machine MUST be = made to=20 prevent chatter and flexing of the column. You also will NEVER find = yourself=20 saying, "Gosh I wish I didn't have this much extra room under the = spindle, or=20 travel on the table." It's like too much horsepower on a plane... you = don't HAVE=20 to use it all, but when you need it, it sure is handy.
    I remember the day that 12,000lb, = 24x72",=20 25hp American Pacemaker lathe showed up at the museum. I thanked the guy = profusely for the donation while secretly asking myself..."What the HELL = am I=20 ever going to do with THAT??!!"
    After I had that = machine all=20 hooked up and cleaned up, I chucked under my breath the day I = was=20 using a cutoff tool to take the top off a Mazda air = conditioner dryer=20 to make a burp-bottle for the 13B. The power was WAY overkill for the = job and=20 the machine was MUCH bigger than you would think necessary, however, I = could fit=20 the entire dryer into the hole in the spindle, so I only had about = 2"=20 sticking out past the chuck jaws. No wobble, no hangups, no problems. = There was=20 not another more perfect machine to do that little simple job. Sure = beats trying=20 to take it off with a pipe cutter or hacksaw. Welding it back up will be = a snap=20 as both sides are already straight and the cut is as clean as = if it=20 were done with a surgeon's scalpel.
    Another example showed up a few = weeks later=20 when a buddy's bandsaw had the idler wheel bearing gall up. It was = chinese,=20 so the bushing was metric. He needed it bored out to 1" so he could go = down to=20 Motion and get a $0.25 bronze bushing for it, instead of trying to = custom order=20 the metric one (I also had to make him a new shaft as it was shot, = too).=20 The wheel was 14" in diameter. I chucked it up and was finished with the = job=20 sooner than I could have found a reamer, set up the drill press and then = had it=20 bounce all over the place and end up with the resulting hole = triangular or=20 pentagonal due to slop in the spindle. I bored it 31/32 and then used a = heavy=20 boring bar to finish the ID. Final fit was within .0005" Without that = machine,=20 it would have been a PITA and the bearing fit would have been=20 sloppy.
    When I found the Van Norman #6, I = thought I=20 would NEVER need a bigger mill. I soon realized how limited even it was. = I=20 jumped at a chance to get a Van Norman 22L, with nearly twice the travel = and=20 table size. It is much better, but it's huge. I would probably have = turned it=20 down if it had been offer to us before I realized the shortcomings of = the=20 #6.
    Buy as big a machine as you = can fit in=20 your shop. Buy a bigger machine than you think you will need. Buy an=20 old used American machine before you buy a new import (if you can = afford=20 new American machine, more power to you!). Buy a floor machine instead = of a=20 bench machine, unless the bench machine has the original cabinet or = stand with=20 it. Buy a lathe first. Buy a BIG lathe (you will be glad you did). Get = somone=20 who knows what they are looking at to go with you if you don't know what = you are=20 looking for, especially on used machines. Don't be afraid to spend as = much or=20 more money on a used American machine, they hold their value extremely = well. A=20 Bridgeport mill or South Bend lathe that costs $2000 can be sold = tomorrow for=20 $2000. A brand new import machine that costs $2000 is worth $1300 = tomorrow, if=20 you are lucky.
    If a 3in1 fits your needs, = is the=20 biggest thing you can fit in your shop, and is the most expensive = machine you=20 can afford, by all means get one! It is better than a soupspoon and = an=20 icepick for removing metal! I promise you, though.... The first time you = just=20 can't fit that little part in your machine and you have to take it over = to=20 somebody else, who puts it in his Bridgeport with room to spare, and = then cuts=20 it like it was mozzerella cheeze, taking a 1/4" at a pass and leaving a = mirror=20 finish with the checkerboard crosshatching from the cutter, you'll be in = the=20 market for a good mill. Been there, done that.  Mike=20 C.
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