X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 51 [XX] (65%) RECEIVED: IP not found on home country list (35%) SPAM TRICK: contains gapped text Return-Path: Received: from mail33.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.5) with ESMTPS id 1801009 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:11:02 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.104; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-237-251-13.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.237.251.13]) by mail33.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l0V89xuq014176 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:01 +1100 Message-ID: <002601c7450f$34d07090$0dfbeddc@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:58:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74561.73D435E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74561.73D435E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jarrett, A great and admirable undertaking - I wish you lived/worked locally! Give us an idea of your design!? George ( down under) George, it will do pretty much whatever size you want. 20ft x 44" = would require splitting it into two pc's [ the usable length is 18ft of = actual machine travel] but, if that includes the cowl and the rudder, = then it could be done in 1 pc as you'd do those seperatly. Large plugs = which have to be fabricated in more than 1 pc are a little bit more = labour intensive, but can be produced so as to bolt together into 1 = usable unit. It's a machined part so the dimensional sections will fit = and match, even if its a complex 3d shape. I entered into this venture because I wanted to build my own plane [of = my own design]. I realized that to do this would be a huge undertaking = making all the needed molds, so I decided to get a machine that would do = it for me. It should be able to do plugs and molds which will require = very little [if any] finish work, other than a lite sanding w/ a foam = board to take down any little ridges left by the tooling.=20 Realizing that others could use the same machine for their own = projects was also a motivating reason to go ahead w/ aquiring it. The = actual operating cost's should be low enough that it would be cheaper to = use this unit over doing a plug yourself [if you value your time @ more = than at minimum wage or so] I also plan to use it to do complex patterns/cores for Aluminum = casting, but thats a bit farther out into the future. Jarrett ----- Original Message ----- From: George Lendich =20 Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:45 pm=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest=20 > Jarrett,=20 > Gawd that's massive, even something smaller would be awesome. It=20 > would be good, seeing your involved with Aviation, to get a lot of=20 > work involving Aviation products.=20 > Would your machine be able to handle a light fuselage pattern, say=20 > about 20' long, usual 2 person width, say 44"?=20 > George (down under)=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: H & J Johnson=20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:09 AM=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > George, its a Gantry Mill, the parts sit almost right on the=20 > floor and the gantry runs on two long side rails which are bolted=20 > into the floor. Attached is a picture showing a similar type of=20 > machine. This particular unit is from Scaled in So-cal. Mine is=20 > smaller than this unit, but then I didn't have the budget that=20 > they do :-)=20 >=20 > I'll have pictures/vid's up on my website, which should be in=20 > about a month.=20 >=20 > Jarrett=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 >=20 >=20 > From: George Lendich =20 >=20 > Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 3:58 pm=20 >=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Jarrett,=20 > > What sort of CNC is that ?=20 > > George ( down under)=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Dave,=20 > >=20 > > I'd vote for the smiley, I would still wonder if having the=20 > > opening out off the bottom face of the cowl wouldn't be=20 > better.=20 > > Mind you, two other things come into play. There probably=20 > isn't to=20 > > much [more] turbulent air or thicker boundry layer that close=20 > > behind the prop at that location. No more than the turbulance=20 > > farther out. Secondly, the rotational vector up close to the=20 > cowl=20 > > very well could be less than farther out.[ to exagerate the=20 > issue,=20 > > imagine the rotational vector out near the prop tip's.]=20 > >=20 > > I've designed a few cowls over the last couple years.=20 > Attached=20 > > are a couple pictures to illustrate. Since you plan to use a=20 > lower=20 > > and upper ducting, I've attached drawings/pic's showing how=20 > I've=20 > > done both designs. It would be a simple matter to combine the=20 > two,=20 > > to arrive at your desired design.=20 > >=20 > > Also I've not said much in the past, but my CNC mill has been=20 > > installed and is just awaiting final wire-up and commisioning.=20 > I=20 > > plan to start offering its use to the Rotary crowd in=20 > producing=20 > > components like cowls, proper diffusion ducting, spinners=20 > [which=20 > > properly fair into the cowls] etc. Theres many other=20 > components=20 > > I'd like to get into building but plan to start out with these=20 > few=20 > > and expand from there. The mill is currently capable of=20 > milling=20 > > parts up to 8 x 18 x 3 [feet] and will be upgraded in the=20 > spring=20 > > to have a 4ft [instead of 3] Z axis. Later, we plan to expand=20 > its=20 > > abilities to 5 axis, however this is more in the neighbourhood=20 > of=20 > > a year or so.=20 > >=20 > > I'll have a website up in the next month or so. However the=20 > > meantime, if I can be of help, please let me know.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Jarrett Johnson=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > From: David Leonard =20 > >=20 > > Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:22 pm=20 > >=20 > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > Todd, if it aint broke dont fix it!!!!=20 > > >=20 > > > You are right about the boundry layer. But you can make up=20 > > for=20 > > > that with a=20 > > > little extra size or maybe moving closer to the prop (eg P-=20 > > 40).=20 > > >=20 > > > Also, Doug dempsy has been telling me how Chuck Dunlap had=20 > a=20 > > real=20 > > > problemwith a duct that was away from the boundry layer,=20 > but=20 > > fixed=20 > > > his issue when=20 > > > he make it bigger and more like the smile.=20 > > >=20 > > > The smile votes seem to have it so far...=20 > > >=20 > > > Dave Leonard=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On 1/30/07, Todd Bartrim wrote:=20 > > > >=20 > > > > I was thinking that the "oh cowl" would be better at=20 > > excluding the=20 > > > > boundary layer, which would be better for cooling. This=20 > is=20 > > just=20 > > > based on=20 > > > > comments I've read on the list during previous ducting=20 > > > discussions. Based on=20 > > > > this info, I felt my oil cooler duct was less than=20 > optimal=20 > > (even=20 > > > though> temps are good), so I figured I could reduce the=20 > size=20 > > of=20 > > > my inlet if I=20 > > > > eliminated the boundary air layer. As your "smile" duct=20 > is=20 > > > similar (see=20 > > > > attached pic) I figured this would be applicable. I hope=20 > I'm=20 > > > wrong and you=20 > > > > prove it before I change my cowl.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Todd (building Electric Bob's Audio Isolator Amplifier=20 > > today)=20 > > > >=20 > > > > On 1/30/07, Ernest Christley =20 > wrote:=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > David Leonard wrote:=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > > I call them the "Oh Cowl" and the "Smiley Cowl..."his=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Go with the smile, but put a raised ledge on the cowl=20 > side=20 > > > just behind=20 > > > > > the spinner to accelerate the air and thin the boundary=20 > > layer.=20 > > > Reduces=20 > > > > > the ingestion of turbulent air. Check the CAFE=20 > > Foundation's drag=20 > > > > > reduction report. They have a picture of what it looks=20 > > like=20 > > > on a=20 > > > > > production aircraft. I have a link to it at home, but=20 > not=20 > > here.=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > --=20 > > > > > ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |=20 > > > > > ----=3D=3D=3D<{{(oQo)}}>=3D=3D=3D---- Dyke Delta = Builder |=20 > > > > > o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > --=20 > > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > > > > > Archive and UnSub: =20 > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > --=20 > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > > > > Archive and UnSub: =20 > > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > David Leonard=20 > > >=20 > > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 > > > My websites at:=20 > > > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html=20 > > > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20 > > > http://leonardiniraq.blogspot.com=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------=20 > ----=20 > > -----------=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > > Archive and UnSub: =20 > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------=20 > -----------=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ = >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74561.73D435E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Jarrett,
A great and admirable undertaking - I = wish you=20 lived/worked locally!
Give us an idea of your = design!?
George ( down under)

George, it will do pretty much whatever size you want. 20ft = x=20 44" would require splitting it into two pc's [ the usable length = is 18ft=20 of actual machine travel] but, if that includes the cowl and the = rudder, then=20 it could be done in 1 pc as you'd do those seperatly. Large plugs = which have=20 to be fabricated in more than 1 pc are a little bit more labour = intensive, but=20 can be produced so as to bolt together into 1 usable unit. It's a = machined=20 part so the dimensional sections will fit and match, even if its a = complex 3d=20 shape.

I entered into this venture because I wanted to build my = own plane=20 [of my own design]. I realized that to do this would be a huge = undertaking=20 making all the needed molds, so I decided to get a machine that would = do it=20 for me. It should be able to do plugs and molds which will require = very little=20 [if any] finish work, other than a lite sanding w/ a foam board to = take down=20 any little ridges left by the tooling.

Realizing that others could use the same machine for their = own=20 projects was also a motivating reason to go ahead w/ aquiring it. The = actual=20 operating cost's should be low enough that it would be cheaper to use = this=20 unit over doing a plug yourself [if you value your time @ more than at = minimum=20 wage or so]

I also plan to use it to do complex patterns/cores for = Aluminum=20 casting, but thats a bit farther out into the future.

 

Jarrett

 

----- Original Message -----

From: George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20

Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:45 pm=20

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest=20

> Jarrett,
> Gawd that's massive, even something = smaller=20 would be awesome. It
> would be good, seeing your involved with = Aviation, to get a lot of
> work involving Aviation products. =
>=20 Would your machine be able to handle a light fuselage pattern, say =
>=20 about 20' long, usual 2 person width, say 44"?
> George (down = under)=20
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: H = & J=20 Johnson
>  To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>  = Sent:=20 Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:09 AM
>  Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 New Cowl Contest
>
>
>
>  George, its = a=20 Gantry Mill, the parts sit almost right on the
> floor and the = gantry=20 runs on two long side rails which are bolted
> into the floor. = Attached=20 is a picture showing a similar type of
> machine. This = particular unit=20 is from Scaled in So-cal. Mine is
> smaller than this unit, but = then I=20 didn't have the budget that
> they do :-)
> =
>  I'll=20 have pictures/vid's up on my website, which should be in
> = about a=20 month.
>
>  Jarrett
>
>
>=20
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> =
> =20 From: George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
> =
> =20 Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 3:58 pm
>
>  = Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest
>
>
>  > =
>  >   Jarrett,
>  >  = What sort=20 of CNC is that ?
>  >  George ( down under) =
> =20 >
>  >
>  >
>  >=20
>  >
>  >
>  >  = Dave,=20
>  >
>  >  I'd vote for the smiley, = I would=20 still wonder if having the
>  > opening out off the = bottom face=20 of the cowl wouldn't be
> better.
>  > Mind you, = two=20 other things come into play. There probably
> isn't to =
> =20 > much [more] turbulent air or thicker boundry layer that close=20
>  > behind the prop at that location. No more than the = turbulance
>  > farther out. Secondly, the rotational = vector up=20 close to the
> cowl
>  > very well could be less = than=20 farther out.[ to exagerate the
> issue,
>  > = imagine the=20 rotational vector out near the prop tip's.]
>  > =
> =20 >  I've designed a few cowls  over the last couple years. =
> Attached
>  > are a couple pictures to = illustrate.=20 Since you plan to use a
> lower
>  > and upper = ducting,=20 I've attached drawings/pic's showing how
> I've
>  = >=20 done both designs. It would be a simple matter to combine the
> = two,=20
>  > to arrive at your desired design.
>  = >=20
>  >  Also I've not said much in the past, but my = CNC mill=20 has been
>  > installed and is just awaiting final = wire-up and=20 commisioning.
> I
>  > plan to start offering = its use to=20 the Rotary crowd in
> producing
>  > components = like=20 cowls, proper diffusion ducting, spinners
> [which =
>  >=20 properly fair into the cowls] etc. Theres many other
> = components=20
>  > I'd like to get into building but plan to start = out with=20 these
> few
>  > and expand from there. The mill = is=20 currently capable of
> milling
>  > parts up to = 8 x 18 x=20 3 [feet] and will be upgraded in the
> spring
>  = > to=20 have a 4ft [instead of 3] Z axis. Later, we plan to expand
> = its=20
>  > abilities to 5 axis, however this is more in the=20 neighbourhood
> of
>  > a year or so. =
> =20 >
>  >  I'll have a website up in the next = month or so.=20 However the
>  > meantime, if I can be of help, please = let me=20 know.
>  >
>  >
>  >=20
>  >  Jarrett Johnson
>  > =
> =20 >
>  >
>  >
>  >=20
>  >
>  >
>  > =
> =20 >
>  >  ----- Original Message ----- =
> =20 >
>  >
>  >  From: David Leonard = <wdleonard@gmail.com>
>  >
>  = > =20 Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:22 pm
>  > =
> =20 >  Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Cowl Contest
>  = >=20
>  >
>  >  > Todd, if it aint = broke dont=20 fix it!!!!
>  >  >
>  >  = > You=20 are right about the boundry layer.  But you can make up =
> =20 > for
>  >  > that with a
>  = > =20 > little extra size or maybe moving closer to the prop (eg P-=20
>  > 40).
>  >  >
>  = >  > Also, Doug dempsy has been telling me how Chuck Dunlap = had=20
> a
>  > real
>  >  > = problemwith=20 a duct that was away from the boundry layer,
> but =
>  >=20 fixed
>  >  > his issue when
>  = > =20 > he make it bigger and more like the smile.
>  = >  >=20
>  >  > The smile votes seem to have it so = far...=20
>  >  >
>  >  > Dave = Leonard=20
>  >  >
>  >  > =
> =20 >  > On 1/30/07, Todd Bartrim <bartrim@gmail.com> = wrote:=20
>  >  > >
>  >  > = > I was=20 thinking that the "oh cowl" would be better at
>  > = excluding=20 the
>  >  > > boundary layer, which would be = better=20 for cooling. This
> is
>  > just
> =20 >  > based on
>  >  > > comments = I've=20 read on the list during previous ducting
>  >  = >=20 discussions. Based on
>  >  > > this info, I = felt my=20 oil cooler duct was less than
> optimal
>  > = (even=20
>  >  > though> temps are good), so I = figured I=20 could reduce the
> size
>  > of
> =20 >  > my inlet if I
>  >  > > = eliminated=20 the boundary air layer. As your "smile" duct
> is =
> =20 >  > similar (see
>  >  > > = attached pic)=20 I figured this would be applicable. I hope
> I'm
>  = >  > wrong and you
>  >  > > = prove it=20 before I change my cowl.
>  >  > > =
> =20 >  > > Todd    (building Electric Bob's = Audio=20 Isolator Amplifier
>  > today)
>  = >  >=20 >
>  >  > > On 1/30/07, Ernest Christley=20 <echristley@nc.rr.com >
> wrote:
>  = >  >=20 > >
>  >  > > > David Leonard = wrote:=20
>  >  > > >
>  >  = > >=20 > > I call them the "Oh Cowl" and the "Smiley Cowl..."his =
> =20 >  > > >
>  >  > > > Go = with the=20 smile, but put a raised ledge on the cowl
> side
>  = >  > just behind
>  >  > > > = the=20 spinner to accelerate the air and thin the boundary
>  = > layer.=20
>  >  > Reduces
>  >  > = >=20 > the ingestion of turbulent air.  Check the CAFE =
>  >=20 Foundation's drag
>  >  > > > reduction=20 report.  They have a picture of what it looks
>  > = like=20
>  >  > on a
>  >  > = > >=20 production aircraft.  I have a link to it at home, but
> = not=20
>  > here.
>  >  > > >=20
>  >  > > > --
>  >  = >=20 > >         =20 = ,|"|"|,           =   =20 Ernest Christley       |
> =20 >  > > > = ----=3D=3D=3D<{{(oQo)}}>=3D=3D=3D----   =20 Dyke Delta Builder      |
>  = > =20 > > >         = o| =20 d  |o       =20 http://ernest.isa-geek.org  |
>  >  > > = >=20
>  >  > > > --
>  >  = >=20 > > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>  = > =20 > > > Archive and UnSub:  
>  = >  >=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> >
>  = >  > >
>  >  > > =
> =20 >  > > --
>  >  > > = Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>  >  > > Archive = and=20 UnSub:  
>  >=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>  = >  >=20 >
>  >  > >
>  >  = > >=20
>  >  > >
>  >  >=20
>  >  >
>  >  > --=20
>  >  > David Leonard
>  >  = >=20
>  >  > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
> =20 >  > My websites at:
>  >  >=20 http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
>  = > =20 > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html
> =20 >  > http://leonardiniraq.blogspot.com
>  = > =20 >
>  >
>  >
>  >=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- =
> ----=20
>  > -----------
>  >
>  = >=20
>  >  --
>  >  Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
>  >  Archive and=20 UnSub:  
> = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/=20
>  >
>
>
>=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- =
>=20 -----------
>
>
>  --
>  = Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>  Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20 

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