Return-Path: Received: from out8.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net ([169.207.3.117] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.4) with ESMTP id 2605604 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:08:18 -0400 Received: from mail0.mx.voyager.net (mail0.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.205]) by out8.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB953C21B for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:08:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from u036fr3za011 (d114.as0.wtma.wi.voyager.net [64.77.136.242]) by mail0.mx.voyager.net (8.12.10/8.10.2) with SMTP id h8R18ERU065645 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c38493$a3aeb2a0$3c40fea9@u036fr3za011> From: "Barnhart" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B's Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:06:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C38469.9EE2C4C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C38469.9EE2C4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 1:04 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B's Thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions! I'm = curious as to why you suggest the Renesis engine? What things are = improved w/ this new engine? I'm wondering though, if cost wouldn't = out-way the incentive because you would have to buy a new engine from = Mazda? Compared to the price of a 20B engine? I tried looking up info = on this new engine on Google and didn't really get anywhere and I = wondering if you have other sources? Do you know even ruffly the = improvements a person could expect over the 20B?weights?Power? If you = had to do this all over again, what changes would you make? Would you = still go w/ the 20B, Renesis? or something else? If you don't mind me = asking [ just tell you you'd rather not say] How much do you have into = your 20B install? How is the price of the Catto prop compared to say and = IVO Magnum? Is your 20B install a normal breather or a turbo'd = version? Thanks very much for all your help! I'm working on my own design and = I can literally build the airframe to suite the engine or the other way = around, but before I do I need to get all the facts I can! Jarrett; The 2-rotor Renesis will put out close to 90% of the hp of the 3-rotor = 20B. It is considerably lighter and probably has a bit lower BSFC. The = lighter rotors running at higher speed may even be smoother than the = 20B. Tracy already has the redrive for it. I paid Atkins $6500 for the rebuilt 20B block plus alternator and = water pump. From what I understand, that is about the same price as a = new renesis. With all the custom parts, pieces, cooler, 2 radiators, = inconel tangential muffler, intake manifold, TB, injectors, redrive, = controller, fittings etc., etc., etc.; I have close to $22,000 into this = installation. It is normally aspirated; plenty of power for a plane = that is designed for 200hp Lycoming. I don't regret anything about doing this engine installation, or = building the plane. I haven't flown it yet, but I expect it to = excellent. If I had it all to do over again, I'd give serious = consideration to buying an airplane and going flying. But then you're = going on step further. I started with a kit. The Catto prop is $1650. Don't know the current price for the Ivo = Magnum, but I guess it's a couple hundred more. I not impressed with = the IVO from a reliability standpoint, and I think the pitch = distribution limits top end performance if you expect to go over about = 210-220 kts. Just one guy's point of view. . .=20 Al Another point of view....... I'm only going for 300 hp, and a turbo that will give me 300hp at = 7,500 - 10,000 ft. I'm a firm believer in cubes/rotors over lots of = gadgets. I can loose a rotor (which will probably not happen, but you = never know) and still have at least 180 hp to limp in on. I'm building = a Murphy Super Rebel which will be either a bush plane or wearing a = serious set of Amphibs. My install will be ALOT lighter than any Ly/Con = could ever dream of with much more reliability. Not only will my 20bt = be lighter, more reliable and I'll only have about $15,000 in the new = engine. Look up the price on a 300 hp turbo, make sure you are sitting = down when you see the stats.... I won't have to worry about shock = cooling the engine in the winter when it set up on skis, and it will be = warm in the cabin, just like a car. No preheating problems also. Don't = have to worry about the politics/reality or whatever fuel they will be = using in aviation fuel. Get a big block LY/CON and cross your fingers. = Going with a Catto electric prop. Heard too much bad info on Ivo's. I see the RX 8 as a new engine, the bugs not out of it yet. 10,000 ft = is not the time or place to take care of them.=20 Bad points. Thirsty on fuel. Just as bad a as a certified turbo. You have to know = what makes it tick. Will be hauling spare parts. I'm putting the engine = together. Building with quality in mind, not on how cheap I can get away = with. At a rotormotor several years ago, there were six of us building = 20b,s. Totally different ideas on how to build them on totally different = aircraft.=20 I think that Al and I feel about the same on our installs. Barny MGDQ 20bt -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- This message scanned for viruses by Corecomm=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C38469.9EE2C4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Friday, September 26, = 2003 1:04=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 20B's

    = Thanks very=20 much for taking the time to answer my questions!  I'm curious as = to why=20 you suggest the Renesis engine?  What things are improved w/ this = new=20 engine? I'm wondering though, if cost wouldn't out-way the incentive = because=20 you would have to buy a new engine from Mazda? Compared to the price = of a 20B=20 engine?  I tried looking up info on this new engine on Google and = didn't=20 really get anywhere and I wondering if you have other sources?  = Do you=20 know even ruffly the improvements a person could expect over the=20 20B?weights?Power?  If you had to do this all over again, what = changes=20 would you make? Would you still go w/ the 20B, Renesis? or something = else? If=20 you don't mind me asking [ just tell you you'd rather not say]  = How much=20 do you have into your 20B install? How is the price of the Catto prop = compared=20 to say and IVO Magnum?   Is your 20B install a normal = breather or a=20 turbo'd version?

 

Thanks very much for all = your=20 help!  I'm working on my own design and I can literally = build=20 the airframe to suite the engine or the other way around, but before I = do I=20 need to get all the facts I can!

 

Jarrett;

 

The = 2-rotor Renesis=20 will put out close to 90% of the hp of the 3-rotor 20B.  It is=20 considerably lighter and probably has a bit lower BSFC.  The = lighter=20 rotors running at higher speed may even be smoother than the 20B.=20  Tracy already = has the=20 redrive for it.

 

I paid = Atkins $6500=20 for the rebuilt 20B block plus alternator and water pump.  From = what I=20 understand, that is about the same price as a new renesis.  With = all the=20 custom parts, pieces, cooler, 2 radiators, inconel tangential muffler, = intake=20 manifold, TB, injectors, redrive, controller, fittings etc., etc., = etc.; I=20 have close to $22,000 into this installation.  It is normally = aspirated;=20 plenty of power for a plane that is designed for 200hp=20 Lycoming.

 

I = don’t regret=20 anything about doing this engine installation, or building the = plane.  I=20 haven’t flown it yet, but I expect it to excellent.  If I = had it all to=20 do over again, I’d give serious consideration to buying an = airplane and going=20 flying.  But then you’re going on step further.  I = started with a=20 kit.

 

The Catto = prop is=20 $1650.  Don’t know the current price for the Ivo Magnum, = but I guess it’s=20 a couple hundred more.  I not impressed with the IVO from a = reliability=20 standpoint, and I think the pitch distribution limits top end = performance if=20 you expect to go over about 210-220 kts.

 

Just one = guy’s=20 point of view. . .

Al

 
Another point of = view.......
 
I'm only going for 300 hp, and a = turbo that=20 will give me 300hp at 7,500 - 10,000 ft.  I'm a firm believer in=20 cubes/rotors over lots of gadgets.  I can loose a rotor (which = will=20 probably not happen, but you never know) and still have at least 180 = hp to=20 limp in on.  I'm building a Murphy Super Rebel which will be = either a=20 bush plane or wearing a  serious set of Amphibs. My install will = be ALOT=20 lighter than any Ly/Con could ever dream of with much  more = reliability.=20 Not only will my 20bt be lighter, more reliable and I'll only have = about =20 $15,000 in the new engine. Look up the price on a 300 hp turbo, = make sure=20 you are sitting down when you see the stats.... I won't have to worry = about=20 shock cooling the engine in the winter when it set up on skis, and it = will be=20 warm in the cabin, just like a car. No preheating problems also. =  Don't=20 have to worry about the politics/reality or whatever fuel they will be = using=20 in aviation fuel. Get a big block LY/CON and cross your fingers. =  Going=20 with a Catto electric prop. Heard too much bad info on = Ivo's.
 
I see the RX 8 as a new engine, the = bugs not=20 out of it yet. 10,000 ft is not the time or place to take care of = them.=20
 
Bad points.
 
Thirsty on fuel. Just as bad a as a = certified=20 turbo. You have to know what makes it tick. Will be hauling spare = parts.=20 I'm putting the engine together. Building with quality in mind, not on = how=20 cheap I can get away with.  At a rotormotor several years ago, = there were=20 six of us building 20b,s. Totally different ideas on how to build them = on=20 totally different aircraft.
 
I think that Al and I feel about = the same on=20 our installs.
 
Barny
MGDQ 20bt
 
This message scanned = for viruses by=20 Corecomm=20
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