X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.2) with ESMTP id 1322853 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 30 Jul 2006 14:13:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k6UID6ts012578 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2006 14:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c6b403$90668fe0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle again! Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 14:11:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6B3E2.0908A4A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6B3E2.0908A4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think those tubes diameters are going to be a problem, but 2" = dia is too much based on my experience. I have not experimented with = the Log Manifolds, therefore can offer any suggestions. I know they can = be made to work, but I suspect that there are certain critical factors = that must be carefully considered (that's the way it is with any = induction system). =20 Make certain your are using radiator hose that has a spring inside or is = otherwise strong enough to withstand the almost 14.7 psi imposed when = you close the throttle - else you could suck them flat {:>). Otherwise, = sounds like a cheap and smart way to experiment. =20 Good luck and keep us all informed Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hutchison, Jason=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:07 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle again! Ed, =20 I am using 1 =BE secondary and 1 =BD primary tubes. That is what = matched the port size on the engine (when deformed to the oval shape of = the port). The lengths of the runners are eight inches from the side of = the engine. The runners terminate into a 4" manifold log and a 65 or 70 = mm T/B. My plan is to build a new manifold log with velocity stacks and = then experiment with different length radiator hose for runners. I know = this is not optimal for flow but it should get me in the ballpark = quickly. Any suggestions are appreciated.=20 =20 Thanks, Jason -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle again! =20 From the opening of the intake port (inside the engine) to the center = of my throttle body my intake length is 22". It appears that a length = between 17-24" is workable and gives good results. Tracy use a similar = approach (from which I stole a lot of ideas) and also got excellent = results when he was flying a 13B. =20 =20 Since I use the stock cast lower and part of the upper cast (which I = cut the cast tubes off and install my own light weight tubes) the = actually length of my tubes is 7-11 inches (adjustable - tubes inside = tubes) . That is the length between my cut-off upper manifold (the one = with the 90 deg bend and cast tubes) and bottom of my throttle body = plate. However, The crucial distance of course is from intake port to = throttle body - not how long the tube portion itself it. I use 1 1/4" = dia tubes for the primary and 1 1/2" dia tubes for the secondary. To = make an adjustable one I have a 1 3/8" dia tube over the 1 1/4 and a 1 = 5/8" tube over the 1 1/2" - but of course you don't need to do that.=20 =20 Too large an intake tube appears to diminish the mixture velocity and = inertia and decrease the amount of mixture stuffed into the combustion = chamber, so while large intake diameters are fine for the 9000+ rpm = racers, they don't appear to offer what we need at the rpm we operate = at. =20 Here is a photo of my most recent intake and one I have flow with for = 3 years. The blue throttle body mount is make out of a two part = polyurethane casting resin and I use a 65mm Mustang TB. Here is a = photo. =20 =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hutchison, Jason=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:52 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle again! =20 Ed, You are correct! I have the 2.85 drive. I scraped the tangential = muffler and now using spintech muffler. I received my velocity stacks = last week, so it on to rev "B" intake. By the way how long are your = runners? =20 Thanks, Jason =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 4:56 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle again! =20 Jason, if I recall correctly you do have the 2.85 gear box. You = should be seeing 5800-6000 rpm static (perhaps a bit less in that heat). = I however do not recall your prop set up but if it is close to the = 74x88 prop Tracy and I both fly with our 2.85 then it would appear your = are not getting adequate airflow into( or out of) the engine. =20 Ed =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hutchison, Jason=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Back in the saddle again! =20 Update on my airplane, I now have four flights on my engine after = replacing the seals. Last night I was up for an hour. At 5000msl it was = 28C temps stabilized at 197(water) and 188 oil. I still need more power. = I am only getting 5000rpm static which makes for very shallow climb = outs. In the air, I'm getting between 5500 and 6000 rpm at about 140mph = (no wheel pants or fairings).=20 =20 I did an experiment with a 12" fan mounted behind the radiator. = The fan keeps the water temp under 190 on the ground, but caused about a = 10-15 degree increase in the air. So now I'm thinking about mounting a = small radiator with a fan under the engine.=20 =20 My next project is to rework the intake for more static rpm. =20 =20 Jason (waiting for winter or at least temps below 90 degrees) ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C6B3E2.0908A4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think those tubes diameters are going to = be a=20 problem, but 2" dia is too much based on my experience.  I have = not =20  experimented with the Log Manifolds, therefore can offer any=20 suggestions.  I know they can be made to work, but I suspect that = there are=20 certain critical factors that must be carefully considered (that's the = way it is=20 with any induction system). 
 
Make certain your are using radiator hose that = has a=20 spring inside or is otherwise strong enough to withstand the almost 14.7 = psi=20 imposed when you close the throttle - else you could suck them flat=20 {:>).  Otherwise, sounds like a cheap and smart way to = experiment. =20
 
Good luck and keep us all informed
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hutchison, = Jason=20
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 = 10:07=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back = in the=20 saddle again!

Ed,

 

I am using = 1 =BE=20 secondary and 1 =BD primary tubes. That is what matched the port size = on the=20 engine (when deformed to the oval shape of the port). The lengths of = the=20 runners are eight inches from the side of the engine. The runners = terminate=20 into a 4" manifold log and a 65 or 70 mm T/B. My plan is to build a = new=20 manifold log with velocity stacks and then experiment with different = length=20 radiator hose for runners. I know this is not optimal for flow but it = should=20 get me in the ballpark quickly. Any suggestions are appreciated.=20

 

Thanks,

Jason

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 = 8:04=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Back in the saddle again!

 

From the opening of the = intake=20 port (inside the engine) to the center of my throttle body my intake = length is=20 22".  It appears that a length between 17-24" is workable and = gives good=20 results.  Tracy use a similar approach (from = which I=20 stole a lot of ideas) and also got excellent results when he was = flying a=20 13B. 

 

Since I use the stock = cast lower=20 and part of the upper cast (which I cut the cast tubes off and install = my own=20 light weight tubes) the actually length of my tubes is 7-11 inches = (adjustable=20 - tubes inside tubes) .  That is the length between my cut-off = upper=20 manifold (the one with the 90 deg bend and cast tubes) and bottom of = my=20 throttle body plate.  However, The crucial distance of course is = from=20 intake port to throttle body - not how long the tube portion itself=20 it.    I use 1 1/4" dia tubes for the primary and 1 = 1/2" dia=20 tubes for the secondary.  To make an adjustable one I have a 1 = 3/8" dia=20 tube over the 1 1/4 and a 1 5/8" tube over the 1 1/2" - but of course = you=20 don't need to do that.

 

Too large an intake tube = appears=20 to diminish the mixture velocity and inertia and decrease the amount = of=20 mixture stuffed into the combustion chamber, so while large intake = diameters=20 are fine for the 9000+ rpm racers, they don't appear to offer what we = need at=20 the rpm we operate at.

 

Here is a photo of my = most recent=20 intake and one I have flow with for 3 years.  The blue throttle = body=20 mount is make out of a two part polyurethane casting resin and I use a = 65mm=20 Mustang TB.  Here is a photo.

 

 

Ed

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Hutchison, = Jason=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Sunday,=20 July 30, 2006 7:52 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle = again!

 

Ed,

You are = correct! I=20 have the 2.85 drive. I scraped the tangential muffler and now using = spintech=20 muffler. I received my velocity stacks last week, so it on to rev = "B"=20 intake. By the way how long are your = runners?

 

Thanks,

Jason

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 = 4:56=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Back in the saddle = again!

 

Jason, if I recall = correctly you=20 do have the 2.85 gear box.   You should be seeing = 5800-6000 rpm=20 static (perhaps a bit less in that heat).  I however do not = recall your=20 prop set up but if it is close to the 74x88 prop Tracy and I both = fly with=20 our 2.85 then it would appear your are not getting adequate airflow = into( or=20 out of) the engine.

 

Ed

 

 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Hutchison, = Jason=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:13 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Back in the saddle = again!

 

Update on my = airplane, I now=20 have four flights on my engine after replacing the seals. Last = night I was=20 up for an hour. At 5000msl it was 28C temps stabilized at = 197(water) and=20 188 oil. I still need more power. I am only getting 5000rpm static = which=20 makes for very shallow climb outs. In the air, I'm getting between = 5500=20 and 6000 rpm at about 140mph (no wheel pants or fairings).=20

 

I did an experiment = with a 12"=20 fan mounted behind the radiator. The fan keeps the water temp = under 190 on=20 the ground, but caused about a 10-15 degree increase in the air. = So now=20 I'm thinking about mounting a small radiator with a fan under the = engine.=20

 

My next project is = to rework=20 the intake for more static rpm.

 

 

Jason (waiting for = winter or=20 at least temps below 90=20 = degrees)

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