X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1123545 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 May 2006 13:47:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k4MHkF6G024670 for ; Mon, 22 May 2006 13:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01c67dc7$b7da0380$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions from a potential rotaryphile Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:46:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DA6.30690570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DA6.30690570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've recorded each time I replaced plugs and always notice the black = coating on the ceramic center cone, but a very high impedance resistance = measurement would have been more objective. But, don't have the = equipment to do that. Read much about other effects of lead on piston engines and the reported = poor interaction (or lack) of lead in gasoline and synthetic oil, lead = "sludge" build up etc. But, so far the only adverse effect I have = detected was with the spark plugs. But, I will try to remember to = check the rings next time, I have the engine apart, Al {:>)=20 Tracy has always flow with a mixture of 2 cycle and Marvel oil and has = gotten over 200 hours on a set of plugs, but I always attributed that = longevity to his minimal use of 100LL - perhaps not completely due to = that. Could be the Marvel Mystery {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: al p wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions from a potential rotaryphile The Marvel Mystery Oil solution is relatively new. So it's not = definitive yet, but I'd be pretty quick to test it if I were you. I'd be = tempted to swap plugs out, then use Marvel at recommended strength. If = you have recorded # of hours of previous plugs, I'd be tempted to do = visual comparison for lead deposits, or some manner of resistance check. = Would be nice if you didn't have to treat it as attribute, rather you = had measure to anticipate fouling. I'd also consider richer marvel = mixture test.=20 Consensus on piston engines is lead builds up on rings. (Better check = your rings Ed. LOL). As I recall, when they first encountered it they = changed plug and stuff, with no effect.=20 -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Mon, 22 May 2006 11:19:31 -0400 "Ed Anderson" = writes: Hi Al,=20 Well, as I said I was a bit surprised to have the that attributed to = you. Relating the comments to sole use of Av Fuel, it provides a more = comprehensive context. I find the use of Marvel Mystery oil in the = context of unfouling plugs certainly interesting. I happen to have = purchased a couple of pints to mix with my 2 stroke oil for a different = reason, but will be great if it extended my spark plug replacement = interval. No question use of 100LL in the rotary does lead to plug fouling = after 20-30 hours - at least that is my experience over 300+ hours of = rotary flying. I tried a different plug but could tell no significant = difference. =20 The drop in rpm due to fouling appears have a tendency to occur in = any high power situation - such as during take off - but even during = cruise if running at a high power level. My theory is with WOT the = combustion chamber pressure is higher (due to the denser air/mixture = ingested) and higher pressure makes it tougher for the spark to jump the = gap. So if lead fouling has started to occur, its easier for the = electrical energy to follow the lead deposit than jump the gap. Back = off on throttle thereby reducing manifold pressure resulting in less = combustion chamber pressure makes the job of jumping the gap a bit = easier and the spark plug starts to function normally resulting in power = recovery. Normally you do not have both rotors (at least my experience) = encounter this situation simultaneously - unless you have ignored the = problem for a considerable amount of time. Normally its one or the = other. However, I did have both rotors go into SAG mode (once before I = fully understood what was happening) taking off fully loaded. = Performance WAS adversely affected and the pucker factor was there = until I realized that even with both rotors SAGGING, I still had over = 500 fpm rate of climb - what I could only have hoped for flying a = Cessna 150. So I just climbed up to altitude over the airport I had = taken off from, pulled back on the throttle and in approx 3 minutes the = SAG situation had cleared up. When SAG occurs I first notice a change in the drone of the engine, = then I find EGT of the afflicted rotor drops about 300F. Rpm will tend = to drop a bit as well - although not as much as in cruise as during take = off. I presume the lower temps are because the unburnt fuel is = causing a cooler exhaust condition in that exhaust port's header. So, anyhow, thanks for setting the matter straight, Al. =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: al p wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions from a potential rotaryphile I'm here Ed. Appreciate your consideration given you were = inadvertently set up. The original post is below. You will note the = paragraph above the section you read talks about negative effect of = EXCLUSIVE use of av fuel. Also described with "this happens every 20 = hours". Original post fwiw: < writes: I'm a bit surprised hearing it came from Al Wick as he was = on this list for a while. I thought he had a better understanding of = what was going on with the rotary. But, you're right a little knowledge = means incomplete knowledge which can be dangerous. Ed -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C67DA6.30690570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've recorded each time I = replaced plugs and=20 always notice the black coating on the ceramic center cone, but a very = high=20 impedance resistance measurement would have been more objective.  = But,=20 don't have the equipment to do that.
 
Read much about other effects of = lead on=20 piston engines and the reported poor interaction (or lack) of lead = in=20 gasoline and synthetic oil, lead "sludge" build up etc.  But, so = far the=20 only adverse effect I have detected was with the spark = plugs.   =20 But, I will try to remember to check the rings next time, I have the = engine=20 apart, Al {:>) 
 
Tracy has always flow with a = mixture of 2=20 cycle and Marvel oil and has gotten over 200 hours on a set of plugs, = but I=20 always attributed that longevity to his minimal use of 100LL - perhaps = not=20 completely due to that.  Could be the Marvel Mystery = {:>)
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 al p = wick
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 = 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions from a=20 potential rotaryphile

The Marvel Mystery Oil solution is relatively new. So it's not = definitive=20 yet, but I'd be pretty quick to test it if I were you. I'd be tempted = to swap=20 plugs out, then use Marvel at recommended strength. If you have = recorded # of=20 hours of previous plugs, I'd be tempted to do visual comparison for = lead=20 deposits, or some manner of resistance check. Would be nice if you = didn't have=20 to treat it as attribute, rather you had measure to anticipate = fouling. I'd=20 also consider richer marvel mixture test.
Consensus on piston engines is lead builds up on rings. (Better = check=20 your rings Ed. LOL). As I recall, when they first encountered it they = changed=20 plug and stuff, with no effect.

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered by=20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
On Mon, 22 May 2006 11:19:31 -0400 "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 writes:
Hi Al, 
 
Well, as I said I was a bit = surprised to=20 have the that attributed to you.  Relating the comments to sole =  use of Av Fuel, it provides a more comprehensive = context.  I find=20 the use of Marvel Mystery oil in the context of unfouling plugs = certainly=20 interesting.  I happen to have purchased a couple of pints to = mix with=20 my 2 stroke oil for a different reason, but will be great if it = extended my=20 spark plug replacement interval.
 
No question use of 100LL in = the rotary=20 does lead to plug fouling after 20-30 hours - at least that is my = experience=20 over 300+ hours of rotary flying.  I tried a different plug but = could=20 tell no significant difference.  
 
The drop in rpm due to = fouling appears=20 have a tendency to occur in any high power situation - such as = during take=20 off - but even during cruise if running at a high power level.  = My=20 theory is with WOT the combustion chamber pressure is higher (due to = the=20 denser air/mixture ingested) and higher pressure makes it tougher = for the=20 spark to jump the gap.  So if lead fouling has started to = occur, its=20 easier for the electrical energy to follow the lead deposit than = jump the=20 gap.  Back off on throttle thereby reducing manifold pressure = resulting=20 in less combustion chamber pressure makes the job of jumping the gap = a bit=20 easier and the spark plug starts to function normally resulting in = power=20 recovery.
 
Normally you do not have = both rotors (at=20 least my experience) encounter this situation simultaneously - = unless =20 you have ignored the problem for a considerable amount of = time. =20 Normally its one or the other.  However, I did have both rotors = go into=20 SAG mode (once before I fully understood what was happening)=20  taking off fully loaded.  Performance WAS adversely=20 affected  and the pucker factor was there until I realized that = even=20 with both rotors SAGGING, I still had over 500 fpm rate of = climb -=20  what I could only  have hoped for flying a Cessna = 150.  So I=20 just climbed up to altitude over the airport I had taken off from, = pulled=20 back on the throttle and in approx 3 minutes the SAG situation had = cleared=20 up.
 
When SAG occurs I first = notice a =20 change in the drone of the engine, then I find EGT of the afflicted = rotor=20 drops about 300F. Rpm will tend to drop a bit as well - = although not as=20 much as in cruise as during take off.   I presume the = lower temps=20 are  because the unburnt fuel is causing a cooler exhaust = condition in=20 that exhaust port's header.
 
So, anyhow,  thanks for = setting the=20 matter straight, Al. 
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 al p = wick=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 = 10:43=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions=20 from a potential rotaryphile

I'm here Ed. Appreciate your consideration given you were=20 inadvertently set up. The original post is below. You will note = the=20 paragraph above the section you read talks about negative effect = of=20 EXCLUSIVE use of av fuel. Also described with "this happens every = 20=20 hours".
 
Original post fwiw:
 
<<Al- just let me in on the system for the auto engine=20 logistics- do all the FBO's serve up auto fuel?
 
Auto fuel relatively difficult to find at airports. You can = do web=20 search for all the ones within flying distance. I planned my = flight from=20 west coast to Osh last year. Two different routes. With the cruise = range=20 of the Cozy it was no big deal to buy auto all the way. I recall = one=20 location I'd have to buy a few gallons of aviation = fuel.
 
In the past, auto engines would notice slight rpm drop = during=20 cruise if they exclusively burned aviation fuel. Week after week = it would=20 increase. If they ran one tank of auto fuel, it would fix itself = until=20 around 10 avgas tanks later. They now use Marvel Mystery oil of = all=20 things, and it reportedly eliminates all negative effects. Marvel = better=20 than 2 other lead scavengers.
 
<<Do the rotory fliers carry chain saw oil mix with = them when=20 going cross country to pour in their tanks after a fill up?
 
Rotary is different issue. Their unusual = combustion=20 chamber requires them to mix 2 cycle oil with each tank. If they = don't=20 their compression seals die prematurely. Just like your boat motor = mix, I=20 don't see it as a big deal. In addition, if they use aviation = fuel,=20 they develop power drop on departure and have to replace all = their=20 plugs before next flight. This happens every 20 hours. They don't = have=20 solution for this.
 
<<somebody said they were using jerry cans of auto = gas and=20 bringing them to their hanger to fill up their tanks- is this = right?
 
I find almost all my flying is from home base, returning = later that=20 day. So I fill (3) 5 gallon cans at gas station 1 mile away from = airport.=20 While I'm doing preflight, these drain into my mobile 30 gallon = tank. I=20 then wheel it over to the plane and it takes 20 seconds to fill = tank.=20 (compressed air transfers it very rapidly). Neat trick I learned = from=20 motorcycle buddy. No more inconvenient than taxiing over to HBO to = get=20 fuel, way less expensive.
 
If I don't value auto fuel savings, just add some Marvel = each av=20 tank, off I go.
 
-al wick
 
 
On Mon, 22 May 2006 08:06:13 -0400 "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 writes:

I'm a bit surprised = hearing it=20 came from Al Wick as he was on this list for a while.  = I=20 thought he had a better understanding of what was going on = with the=20 rotary.  But, you're right a little knowledge means = incomplete=20 knowledge which can be dangerous.
 
Ed
 

-al wick
Artificial = intelligence in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru = install, Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
=
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