X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao07.cox.net ([68.230.241.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1111877 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 13 May 2006 10:14:08 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.32; envelope-from=ALVentures@cox.net Received: from BigAl ([72.192.132.90]) by fed1rmmtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.01 201-2131-130-101-20060113) with ESMTP id <20060513141321.ZSDU27327.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@BigAl> for ; Sat, 13 May 2006 10:13:21 -0400 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Emergency Checklist Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:13:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c67697$6d1575a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6765C.C0B90EA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6765C.C0B90EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think a ground rule for any emergency analysis is that we do not = assume multiple independent failures. However; I currently do not have a = backup tach - rpm comes from the EC2, and EC2 failure takes the tach with it. = But then we do have a backup controller. One question that I have - Is it assured that in an engine out (due to ignition, fuel, etc.) that the = prop will windmill at glide speed? Probably different for different planes, = so it may be something that has to be determined. I'm guessing that using a reduction drive makes it more likely that it will not windmill. =20 Oil pressure and voltage level would tell you whether the engine was spinning. =20 My initial thought about knowing whether the prop is turning or not had = to do with knowing whether the engine had 'frozen'; although I would expect that it is very unlikely to occur without some advance notice. =20 It does seem that a mirror; or perhaps a miniature video camera = somewhere, giving a view of the engine end of the plane would be a useful item. =20 But while you tractor guys are thinking. "Yeah, well what sense does it = make o have the engine in back anyway"; I'll add that even just taxiing my = plane, with the smoothness of the rotary, and without that prop spinning up = front, was a bit like a magic carpet ride. =20 Al =20 In a message dated 5/13/2006 7:44:25 AM Central Standard Time, rijakits@cwpanama.net writes: Tachs also can go bad/out. I find the idea with the rearview mirror on the winglet excellent! Of course you dont stick an actual mirror there, but put some stainless = foil with adhesive backing on. You don't need a telescope clear image, just enough to tell wether the club is milling or not.... Try it out, if it doesn't work, all it takes is little WD40 to remove = the glue... =20 TJ TJ, =20 I was up all last night thinking about the same thing. (all right some = of the night) There are other indicators of a stopped prop which are not codependent. With a stopped prop, there will be no oil pressure. With a stopped prop, there will be no charging. With a stopped prop, the noise level may be different. With a stopped prop the vibration level will be different. With a stopped prop there will be no fuel flow. With a = stopped prop EGT and CHT will drop to ambient. I don't know what the difference = in the way the Cozy feels with a stopped prop, but I imagine it would be different. =20 I remember, in the past, that the Cessna 337 push me - pull you twin, designed to be the safest twin by virtue of it's centerline thrust, had = one of the worst engine out accident rates because pilots were unaware of a = rear engine failure, took off with the front engine, only. Thinking that they = had full power proceeded to climb and stall out. Other than an AD note which required the rear engine to be brought to TO power before advancing the front engine, if memory serves me correctly there was an indicator light (idiot style) that indicated a stopped rear engine.=20 =20 It would seem that a simple digital circuit could be easily designed to illuminate or sound when a combination of the above items occur simultaneously. =20 Rich ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C6765C.C0B90EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think a = ground rule for any emergency analysis is that we do not assume multiple independent = failures.  However; I currently do not have a backup tach – rpm comes from = the EC2, and EC2 failure takes the tach with it. But then we do have a backup controller.  One question that I have - Is it assured that in an = engine out (due to ignition, fuel, etc.) that the prop will windmill at glide = speed?  Probably different for different planes, so it may be something that has = to be determined. I’m guessing that using a reduction drive makes it = more likely that it will not windmill.

 

Oil pressure and voltage level = would tell you whether the engine was spinning.

 

My initial thought about knowing = whether the prop is turning or not had to do with knowing whether the engine had = ‘frozen’; although I would expect that it is very unlikely to occur without some = advance notice.

 

It does seem that a mirror; or = perhaps a miniature video camera somewhere, giving a view of the engine end of the = plane would be a useful item.

 

But while you tractor guys are = thinking. “Yeah, well what sense does it make o have the engine in back = anyway”; I’ll add that even just taxiing my plane, with the smoothness of = the rotary, and without that prop spinning up front, was a bit like a magic = carpet ride.

 

Al

 

In a message dated 5/13/2006= 7:44:25 = AM Central Standard Time, rijakits@cwpanama.net = writes:

Tachs also can go bad/out.

I find the idea with the rearview mirror on the winglet = excellent!

Of course you dont stick an actual mirror there, but put some stainless = foil with adhesive backing on. You don't need a telescope clear image, just enough = to tell wether the club is milling or not....

Try it out, if it doesn't work, all it takes is little WD40 to remove the = glue...

 

TJ=

TJ,

 

I was up all last night thinking about the same thing. (all right some of the = night) There are  other indicators of a stopped prop which are not = codependent. With a stopped prop, there will be no oil pressure. With a stopped prop, = there will be no charging. With a stopped prop, the noise level may be = different. With a stopped prop the vibration level will be different. With a = stopped prop there will be no fuel flow. With a stopped prop EGT and CHT will = drop to ambient. I don't know what the difference in the way the Cozy = feels with a stopped prop, but I imagine it would be different.

 

I remember, in the past, that the Cessna 337 push me - pull you twin, = designed to be the safest twin by virtue of it's centerline thrust, had one of the = worst engine out accident rates because pilots were unaware of a rear engine = failure, took off with the front engine, only. Thinking that they had full power proceeded to climb and stall out. Other than an AD note which required = the rear engine to be brought to TO power before advancing the front engine, if = memory serves me correctly there was an indicator light (idiot style) that = indicated a stopped rear engine.

 

It would seem that a simple digital circuit could be easily designed to = illuminate or sound when a combination of the above items occur = simultaneously.

 

Rich

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