X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 974687 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:14:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id k18HDaRm018995 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:13:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c62cd3$03804f60$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Aircraft HP?? Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 6 port? Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:13:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C62CA9.1A18DCD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C62CA9.1A18DCD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting indeed! I took the 360 CID displacement of a 180 HP Lycoming and calculated the = airflow (assuming 100% VE which is doubtful) at 2700 rpm and I get 281 = CFM. That's just a hair more than a 13B at 6000 rpm which gives 277 CFM = which gives a 160HP (standard day at sea level) . =20 Since the stock aircraft engine does not have anymore compression than = the rotary and since we can wind our engines much higher than 6000 rpm, = I would say this supports Lynn's comment about: 1. aircraft engines not producing ( in normal operation) the power we = all supposed they did. 2. That the rotary can (does not mean all do) produce more HP than the = stock Lycoming 320-360. =20 Another point is Tracy Crook's max performance 13B (old and new) will = out run any stock 360 with breath to spare. I understand Rusty has a 360 for sale, cheap {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:55 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 6 port? In a message dated 2/8/2006 9:06:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, = russell.duffy@gmail.com writes: Hi Lynn,=20 You're right that I would truly be surprised IF this were true. I = don't buy it though. Got any evidence to support this statement?=20 Cheers, Rusty (180+ HP Lyclone on the way) =20 There is ample evidence. After a thousand or so hours in the dyno = room, you can develop a feel for such things. Look at the ID of the carb = or TB on the 180. How many CFM? Enough to support the advertised HP? At = what rpm is that HP rating? Can't get a dyno sheet for your new engine? = And if you could, what is the date on that sheet? Is it for your engine, = or for an engine built years ago? =20 Typical of the breed is a HP rating at 3,200 to 3,400 RPM (from years = ago) and with a prop on them they won't turn up 2,700 on the ground. And = only get to the rated power RPM in a dive. Hardly usable power. If you = get behind one of the Black Max type rebuilds it feels like a rocket, = because it is at or very close to its (Factory) advertised HP. And they = do that with porting to match the flow rates of the cast heads. And you = cannot put your finger in the ring end gaps. If you can find a list of torque outputs for a list of aircraft = engines, compare them to the rotary driving through a 2.85:1 reduction = box. Now you see that the rotary does very well against the airplane = engine. Look at it backwards and compare the swept volume of the two = engines at any prop RPM. Since the rotary does outrun most of the 160 HP = powered planes, would you assume that those rotaries have way more than = 160 HP? Or, perhaps the 160s had a bit less. I can get 3+ HP per cubic = inch, would that make a great Lycoming or what? Take off in a Cessna 150. Alone, so it won't be over gross. Did that = feel like 150HP?=20 Did it feel more like 79HP? Why yes it did. =20 Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C62CA9.1A18DCD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting indeed!
 
I took the 360 CID displacement of a 180 HP Lycoming = and=20 calculated the airflow (assuming 100% VE which is doubtful) at 2700 rpm = and I=20 get 281 CFM.  That's just a hair more than a 13B at 6000 rpm which = gives=20 277 CFM which gives a 160HP (standard day at sea level) .  =
 
Since the stock aircraft engine does not have = anymore=20 compression than the rotary and since we can wind our engines much = higher than=20 6000 rpm,  I would say this supports Lynn's comment = about:
 
1. aircraft engines not producing ( in = normal=20 operation) the power  we all supposed they did.
 
2.  That the rotary can (does not mean all = do)=20 produce more HP than the stock Lycoming 320-360. 
 
Another point is Tracy Crook's max performance 13B = (old and=20 new) will out run any stock 360 with breath to spare.
 
I understand Rusty has a 360 for sale, cheap=20 {:>)
 
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, = 2006 9:55=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 6 = port?

In a message dated 2/8/2006 9:06:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, russell.duffy@gmail.com=20 writes:
Hi Lynn,
 
You're right that I would truly be = surprised IF this=20 were true.  I don't buy it though.  Got any evidence = to=20 support this statement? 
 
Cheers,
Rusty (180+ HP Lyclone on the=20 = way)   
There is ample evidence. After a thousand or so hours in the dyno = room,=20 you can develop a feel for such things. Look at the ID of the = carb or TB=20 on the 180. How many CFM? Enough to support the advertised HP? At what = rpm is=20 that HP rating? Can't get a dyno sheet for your new engine? And if you = could,=20 what is the date on that sheet? Is it for your engine, or for an = engine built=20 years ago?  
 
Typical of the breed is a HP rating at 3,200 to 3,400 RPM (from = years=20 ago) and with a prop on them they won't turn up 2,700 on the ground. = And only=20 get to the rated power RPM in a dive. Hardly usable power. If you=20 get behind one of the Black Max type rebuilds it feels like a = rocket,=20 because it is at or very close to its (Factory) advertised HP. And = they do=20 that with porting to match the flow rates of the cast heads. And you = cannot=20 put your finger in the ring end gaps.
 
If you can find a list of torque outputs for a list of aircraft = engines,=20 compare them to the rotary driving through a 2.85:1 reduction box. Now = you see=20 that the rotary does very well against the airplane engine. Look at it = backwards and compare the swept volume of the two engines at any prop = RPM.=20 Since the rotary does outrun most of the 160 HP powered planes, would = you=20 assume that those rotaries have way more than 160 HP? Or, perhaps = the=20 160s had a bit less.  I can get 3+ HP per cubic inch, would that = make a=20 great Lycoming or what?
 
Take off in a Cessna 150. Alone, so it won't be over gross. Did = that feel=20 like 150HP?
Did it feel more like 79HP? Why yes it did.   
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
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