Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.116] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP id 2564205 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:57:37 -0400 Received: from unknown (52.birmingham-01-02rs.al.dial-access.att.net[12.86.88.52]) by mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <200309020157121120062v74e>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:57:13 +0000 Message-ID: <001701c370f5$6326ee20$3458560c@unknown> From: "Michael D. Callahan" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: flight #2 and #3 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:56:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C370CB.7976B2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C370CB.7976B2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rusty, As I have heard, it is not the oil that is the concern...it is the = oil control O-rings on the sides of the rotors that won't take higher = oil temps. Mike C. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Perry Mick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:13 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flight #2 and #3 Rusty: I have yet to measure the oil temp in the pan, I intend to do it so I = know how well my oil=20 cooler is working. But 210 into the engine is gospel from Racing Beat. = On my first flight oil temp went to 240 into the engine (out of the oil cooler). This was because = of inadequate airflow through the oil cooler. With 240 in the pan you may still be ok, = depending on how well=20 your oil cooler is working. My oil temp will still go to 220 into the = engine on a hot day during climb. Russell Duffy wrote: Thanks, but I haven't really loved it that much yet. Maybe by the = time the button gets here :-) OK, below is today's installment of the log. As you'll see, climb = rpm ain't what I was expecting, and likely explains the sluggish = performance. What is the "normal" spread between static, and climb rpm = for some of you guys that are flying? =20 Also, you'll note that water temp is rock solid at 180 with the = thermostat, but oil went as high as 240. This is measured at the pan, = and I assume (from Finn's data) that the return oil is probably 230 or = so. I'll be looking into an inline sensor so I can measure the temp as = it goes into the engine. Does anyone know what the safe limit for oil = temp would be? I'm running Mobile1 SuperSyn 10W-30, and their site = doesn't exactly give a temp limit that I can see. If the oil can = (hypothetically) withstand routine use at 260 degrees, would the engine = be harmed by running it that hot? I've always figured that temp limits = were for breakdown of the oil, but we do cool the rotors with it, so I'm = sure there's some limit to what the engine will be happy with. Just = sorting through my options at this point. =20 Anyone know of an inline temp sensor block that's available, and = would have AN-10 or AN-12 fittings? =20 Cheers, Rusty 9-1-03 / .6 hours / .7 total Second, and I guess third flights today. Still no fatalities, but I = verified that the landing gear is pretty strong. Gotta stop flaring = this thing 5 ft off the ground. =20 Flight notes. This is with the prop set to 15 degrees of pitch, = which gave 5400 rpm at 3 psi of boost static. It's also with a stock = 180 degree thermostat.=20 First takeoff and climb was done at 0-1 psi, and 90 mph. This felt = about like the other day, but I couldn't coax my anywhere map into = giving me a decent VSI reading . It appeared to be about 1000 fpm. By = most standards, this isn't bad, but it's not what I'm hoping for. I was = also paying too much attention to the temps to notice the rpm during = climb to 2000 ft. The water started out at 180 degrees, and never = moved. The oil started out at about 150 degrees, and reached about 220 = by the time I got to 2000 ft. I continued flying in circles at 5000 rpm = and 120 mph, and the oil maxed out at 240 degrees. This is certainly on = the edge of being too high, but since I'm reading the oil pan, not the = return oil from the cooler, it's not as bad as it sounds. More power, = but higher airspeed might be a wash. I need to try to rig an inline oil = temp probe for the return oil. The aileron trim was fine today, but = that's because the fuel was balanced, the actual trim still does = nothing. Measured the springs for replacement with stronger ones. = During descent, and landing, the oil came back down to 180 or so. = There's also not enough up trim for landing, even with no flaps, and = this thing drops like a rock with low power. =20 Once on the ground, I decided to do another run around the pattern, = to see what the oil temps would do with a full throttle takeoff. = Departed at 3psi of boost, and there was quite a difference in the feel = of power. Climb was still only 1500 fpm, but the real surprise was when = I looked (finally) at the tach. During climb, at 90 mph, and 3 psi of = boost, I was only turning 4700 rpm. Starting to make sense now. I = guess the prop was stalled during the static runs, so my 5400 rpm (3psi) = was artificially high. I bet I was only turning 4400 or less during the = 0 psi climbs. No wonder it seemed like a dog. Water of course stayed = rock solid at 180 degrees, but oil climbed rapidly to about 220 degrees = by 1500 ft. It's likely that 90 mph isn't the best climb rate for the = plane, so I'll try a little higher airspeed next time. That will also = help with the cooling. =20 After the flights, I found a couple drops of oil, from those stupid = POS Earl's swivel fittings. They're leaking from the swivel. I'll = NEVER buy these again. I didn't find anything else wrong, but I'm not = sure what I'll do about the temps, so I'll leave the cowl off for now. = I reset the prop pitch to 12 degrees, which wasn't exactly what I meant = to do. I thought I was on 14, so I went down 2 degrees. I was = actually on 15, and am now down 3 degrees. Should be just fine, since = I've got lots of headroom on the engine rpm range to work with. =20 =20 --=20 Perry Mick Custom Composite Props mick@bridgingworlds.com http://www.ductedfan.com ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C370CB.7976B2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rusty,
    As I have heard, it is not the = oil that is=20 the concern...it is the oil control O-rings on the sides of the rotors = that=20 won't take higher oil temps.  Mike C.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Perry = Mick=20
Sent: Monday, September 01, = 2003 8:13=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flight = #2 and=20 #3

Rusty:

I have yet to measure the oil temp in the = pan, I=20 intend to do it so I know how well my oil
cooler is working. But = 210 into=20 the engine is gospel from Racing Beat. On my first flight oil = temp
went to=20 240 into the engine (out of the oil cooler). This was because of = inadequate=20 airflow
through the oil cooler. With 240 in the pan you may still = be ok,=20 depending on how well
your oil cooler is working. My oil temp will = still=20 go to 220 into the engine on a hot day
during climb.

Russell = Duffy=20 wrote:
 
Thanks, but I haven't really loved it = that=20 much yet.  Maybe by the time the button gets here=20 :-)
 
OK, below is today's installment of the=20 log.  As you'll see, climb rpm ain't what I was expecting, = and=20 likely explains the sluggish performance.  What is=20 the "normal" spread between static, and climb rpm for some of = you guys=20 that are flying?  
 
Also, you'll note that water temp is rock = solid at=20 180 with the thermostat, but oil went as high as 240.  = This is=20 measured at the pan, and I assume (from Finn's data) that the return = oil is=20 probably 230 or so.  I'll be looking into an inline sensor = so I=20 can measure the temp as it goes into the engine.  Does anyone = know what=20 the safe limit for oil temp would be?  I'm running=20 Mobile1 SuperSyn 10W-30, and their site doesn't = exactly give a=20 temp limit that I can see.  If the oil can = (hypothetically)=20 withstand routine use at 260 degrees, would the engine be harmed by = running=20 it that hot?  I've always figured that temp limits were = for=20 breakdown of the oil, but we do cool the rotors with it, so I'm sure = there's=20 some limit to what the engine will be happy with.  Just sorting = through=20 my options at this = point.  
 
Anyone know of an inline temp sensor = block that's=20 available, and would have AN-10 or AN-12=20 fittings?  
 
Cheers,
Rusty
 
 

9-1-03  /  = .6=20 hours  /  .7=20 total

Second, and I guess = third flights=20 today.  Still no fatalities, but I verified that = the=20 landing gear is pretty strong.  Gotta stop flaring = this=20 thing 5 ft off the ground.  =

Flight notes.  This is = with the prop=20 set to 15 degrees of pitch, which gave 5400 rpm at 3 psi of boost=20 static.  It=92s also with a stock 180 degree = thermostat.=20

First takeoff and = climb was done=20 at 0-1 psi, and 90 mph.  This felt about like the = other=20 day, but I couldn=92t coax my anywhere map into giving me a decent = VSI=20 reading . =20 It appeared to be about 1000 fpm.  = By=20 most standards, this isn=92t bad, but it=92s not what I=92m hoping=20 for.  I was also paying too much attention to the = temps to=20 notice the rpm during climb to 2000 ft.  The water = started=20 out at 180 degrees, and never moved.  The oil = started out=20 at about 150 degrees, and reached about 220 by the time I got to = 2000=20 ft.  I continued flying in circles at 5000 rpm and = 120=20 mph, and the oil maxed out at 240 degrees.  This = is=20 certainly on the edge of being too high, but since I=92m reading the = oil pan,=20 not the return oil from the cooler, it=92s not as bad as it=20 sounds.  More power, but higher airspeed might be = a=20 wash.  I need to try to rig an inline oil temp = probe for=20 the return oil.  The aileron trim was fine today, = but=20 that=92s because the fuel was balanced, the actual trim still does=20 nothing.  Measured the springs for replacement = with=20 stronger ones.  During descent, and landing, the = oil came=20 back down to 180 or so.  There=92s also not enough = up trim=20 for landing, even with no flaps, and this thing drops like a rock = with low=20 power. 

Once on the ground, I = decided to=20 do another run around the pattern, to see what the oil temps would = do with a=20 full throttle takeoff.  Departed at 3psi of boost, = and=20 there was quite a difference in the feel of power.  = Climb=20 was still only 1500 fpm, but the real surprise was when I looked = (finally)=20 at the tach.  During climb, at 90 mph, and 3 psi = of boost,=20 I was only turning 4700 rpm.  Starting to make = sense=20 now.  I guess the prop was stalled during the = static runs,=20 so my 5400 rpm (3psi) was artificially high.  I = bet I was=20 only turning 4400 or less during the 0 psi climbs.  = No=20 wonder it seemed like a dog.  Water of course = stayed rock=20 solid at 180 degrees, but oil climbed rapidly to about 220 degrees = by 1500=20 ft.  It=92s likely that 90 mph isn=92t the best = climb rate for=20 the plane, so I=92ll try a little higher airspeed next = time. =20 That will also help with the cooling. =20

After the flights, I = found a=20 couple drops of oil, from those stupid POS Earl=92s swivel=20 fittings.  They=92re leaking from the = swivel. =20 I=92ll NEVER buy these again.  I didn=92t = find anything=20 else wrong, but I=92m not sure what I=92ll do about the temps, so = I=92ll leave the=20 cowl off for now.  I reset the prop pitch to 12 = degrees,=20 which wasn=92t exactly what I meant to do.  I = thought I was=20 on 14,  so I went down 2 degrees.  = I was=20 actually on 15, and am now down 3 degrees.  Should = be just=20 fine, since I=92ve got lots of headroom on the engine rpm range to = work=20 with.  =20 =

     


--=20
Perry Mick
Custom Composite Props
mick@bridgingworlds.com
http://www.ductedfan.com

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