X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.115] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c1) with ESMTP id 688518 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:06:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.131.115; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from 204.127.135.63 ([204.127.135.63]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2005083122060711100iihohe>; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:06:07 +0000 Received: from [209.247.222.92] by 204.127.135.63; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:06:06 +0000 From: keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: Rational for TES "O" Rings Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:06:06 +0000 Message-Id: <083120052206.29917.431629CE00082B84000074DD2160376223019D9B040A05@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Feb 14 2005) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29917_1125525966_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29917_1125525966_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ken, Your point is well taken and may very well be valid.........I do not expect or advocate a mass run to change the seals (rotor or coolent) to TES....... I expect a few individuals (myself included) to try them and see how they hold up as Tracy would say "In the real world".........My primary aim was to first eliminate the problem of "What size"........Next will be how they perform in flying engines........Chuck Dunlap is currently flying with TES seals in his rotors and reports they are doing fine........ I am still waiting to hear how many hours he has on them....... -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 -------------- Original message from Ken Welter : -------------- I don't know how you figure the TES seals could raise the temp but I am concerned at how stiff they are and in the application of the rotors I think the seals need to be softer and more flexible but that's just an eyeball engineers point of view, the Viton seals have worked just fine for me and in my early days of sorting things out I was running very high oil temps and still had no problems with the O-rings, if it works I don't fix it. I am however using the TES O-rings in the rotor housing and like them and will stick with them but this is an application where I don't think they need to be flexible as with the rotors but then again I am just an eyeball engineer. Ken Welter Rusty and all, I am of the opinion (yet to be proven ) that the use of TES seals in the rotors may raise the critical temp for oil.......It is well known that the 13B is most efficient with oil temps in the 160 to 200 F range and that power suffers above these numbers........I do not advocate flying with oil temps above those numbers but most of us will struggle with oil temps as we sort out our oil cooling systems.........My hope is that the TES seals will provide a safety buffer for oil temp by preventing the rotor oil seals from going away with short periods of over temp during test flying......The same can be said for the inner coolent seal as well with the outer seal probably not a real problem (but they are less expensive than stock)........ FWIW -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 -------------- Original message from keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer): -------------- Rusty, Chuck Dunlap is currently flying with TES O-rings supplied to him by Paul Lamar........ These are Creavey seals of the sizes determined by Paul L.......I failed to ask Chuck the flying hours on these seals..... Chuck jump in here if you are listening !! I do know that the flying conditions in Arizonia where he lives put a strain on both coolent and oil cooling systems and their respective seals.......If there are others currently flying these seals in the rotors I am not aware of who they are !! -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 -------------- Original message from "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net>: -------------- The Rotor Oil Seal O-ring sizes are: (Credit to Paul Lamar) PFA-SIL 0.093" section 4.680 inch ID $4.59 each PFA-SIL 0.118" section 4.330 inch ID $4.47 " The Coolent O-ring sizes are: PFA-SIL 0.093" section 11.190 inch ID $8.33 " PFA-SIL 0.093" section 8.950 inch ID $6.60 " Hi Kelly, Thanks for posting the final results of your quest. This will be good info to stash away. If nothing else, these are quite a bit cheaper than the stock rings. Is anyone currently using the TES o-rings for the oil seals, and have significant time on them? Cheers, Rusty --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29917_1125525966_0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ken,
   Your point is well taken and may very well be valid.........I do not expect
or advocate a mass run to change the seals (rotor or coolent) to TES.......
  I expect a few individuals (myself included) to try them and see how
they hold up as Tracy would say "In the real world".........My primary
aim was to first eliminate the problem of "What size"........Next will be
how they perform in flying engines........Chuck Dunlap is currently
flying with TES seals in his rotors and reports they are doing fine........
I am still waiting to hear how many hours he has on them.......
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




-------------- Original message from Ken Welter <rotary.coot@verizon.net>: --------------

   I don't know how you figure the TES seals could raise the temp but I am concerned at how stiff they are and in the application of the rotors I think the seals need to be softer and more flexible but that's just an eyeball engineers point of view, the Viton seals have worked just fine for me and in my early days of sorting things out I was running very high oil temps and still had no problems with the O-rings, if it works I don't fix it.
 I am however using the TES O-rings in the rotor housing and like them and will stick with them but this is an application where I don't think they need to be flexible as with the rotors but then again I am just an eyeball engineer.
  Ken Welter




Rusty and all,
      I am of the opinion (yet to be proven ) that the use of TES seals in the
rotors may raise the critical temp for oil.......It is well known that the 13B
is most efficient with oil temps in the 160 to 200 F range and that power
suffers above these numbers........I do not advocate flying with oil temps
above those numbers but most of us will struggle with oil temps as we
sort out our oil cooling systems.........My hope is that the TES seals will
provide a safety buffer for oil temp by preventing the rotor oil seals from
going away with short periods of over temp during test flying......The
same can be said for the inner coolent seal as well  with the outer seal
probably not a real problem (but they are less expensive than stock)........
 
FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2


-------------- Original message from keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer): --------------
Rusty,
   Chuck Dunlap is currently flying with TES O-rings supplied to him
by Paul Lamar........ These are Creavey seals of the sizes determined
by Paul L.......I failed to ask Chuck the flying hours on these seals.....
Chuck jump in here if you are listening !! I do know that the flying
conditions in Arizonia  where he lives put a strain on both coolent
and oil cooling systems and their respective seals.......If there are
others currently flying these seals in the rotors I am not aware of
who they are !!
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2


-------------- Original message from "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net>: --------------
The Rotor Oil Seal O-ring  sizes are: (Credit to Paul Lamar) 
 
 PFA-SIL   0.093" section  4.680 inch ID  $4.59 each
 PFA-SIL   0.118" section  4.330 inch ID  $4.47   " 
 
 The Coolent O-ring sizes are: 
 
PFA-SIL   0.093" section 11.190 inch ID  $8.33   " 
PFA-SIL   0.093" section   8.950 inch ID  $6.60   " 
 
 
Hi Kelly,
 
Thanks for posting the final results of your quest.  This will be good info to stash away.  If nothing else, these are quite a bit cheaper than the stock rings. 
 
Is anyone currently using the TES o-rings for the oil seals, and have significant time on them?
 
Cheers,
Rusty    
 
 
 
 

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