X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail02.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.183] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTPS id 612147 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:26:42 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.183; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-108-201.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.108.201]) by mail02.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j6MMPqts013991 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:25:53 +1000 Message-ID: <004f01c58f0c$6eeaac60$c96cecdc@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: TES "O" Rings Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:26:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01C58F60.404D7E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C58F60.404D7E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=20 Your photo is very timely - I do remember it! I would like to mention that it is the opinion of some, that the = reason the Renesis moved back to the groove in the Rotor Housing might = be because of the fact of the cast iron being so thin in that area, = whereas the rotor housings have a steel liner to help retain and = withstand the pressure of the "O" ring in that area. Their argument seems reasonable to me! George (down under) Back in 2002, the attached pictures were distributed, showing what = happens when the o-ring fills the groove too completely. Upon heatup, = the silicon expands and creates enough hydraulic pressure to break the = cast iron. There was discussion at the time, but I don't have time to = try to find the text that went with these pictures, just make sure you = don't fill the o-ring groove completely. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:50 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TES "O" Rings Kelly, Good questions, even a percentage would do! I think Jeff is sick of me, I will leave that up one up to you old = mate! Given he has suggested shrinking the "O" rings with a heat gun, I = assume they shrink not expand BUT may be expand before shrinking!? George ( down under) George, Just what I was looking for !! Now I wonder what percentage = of the=20 groove area that "Creavy" says needs to be filled and do the = teflon- silicon O-rings expand (grow) under heat ?? -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" = : --------------=20 Kelly, I see what you mean - a quick check of areas reveal a ratio of = area of grove to "O" ring cross sectional area as:- 1. .093 =3D 1: .924343 ( for the .065x .113) proven fit - outer = "O" ring!! 2. .098 =3D 1: .859 ( for the .065x .135) OK 3. .1 =3D 1: .8945868( for the .065x .135) OK 4. .103 =3D 1: .9490484 ( for the .065x.135) TOO BIG. Given the crush 'cross section' is different, but the Teflon = flows under that pressure, 2 and 3 should be OK - I'm using your = dimension measurements. George ( down under) George and All, I just realized I did not answer your question.......I = wanted to find a=20 cross section of the PFA-SIL that was close to the .098 as = called out in earlier posts for the inner coolent O-ring......I measured = the coolent O-ring grooves of my housings........Both inner and outer = grooves measured .065 thousands deep.......Width of the inner was.135 = thousands and width of the outer was .113 thousands........Now can = someone much better in math than me figure what diameter of O-ring can we = use in the inner groove wthout causing a hydraulic rupture......The inner = coolent O-ring sees more heat and pressure than the outer O-ring !! On paper it = appears that a .093 thousands O-ring has enough crush according to the = depth of the groove but it is free to rattle around in the .135 = width.........IMHO -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from keltro@att.net (Kelly = Troyer): --------------=20 George, I was trying to find out what diameters (cross section) = of the high temp (500 degree f) PFA-SIL was available.........I wonder if the = (450 degree f) FEP-SIL might be good enough for the coolent O-rings but use = the high temp for the rotor side seal O-rings........If the coolent = seals ever see even=20 450 degrees the aluminum rotor hsgs will probably start to = crush !! "Opinions" -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" = : --------------=20 Kelly, What was that in relation to. George ( down under) Group, More info from "Creavey"=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 From: "Jeff Chrysler" = Save Address Reminder=20 =20 To: "Kelly Troyer" =20 Subject: RE: Sil-PFA .098 availability=20 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:12:27 +0000 [View = Source]=20 =20 PFA is available in .103" cross section. =20 Jeff =20 ---------------------------------------------------------- From: Kelly Troyer [mailto:keltro@att.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:48 AM To: Jeff Chrysler Subject: RE: Sil-PFA .098 availability =20 Jeff, Thanks Jeff........What diameters are = available in PFA-SIL........ .100 would probably work if available. =20 Kelly Troyer =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C58F60.404D7E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
Your photo is very timely - I do = remember=20 it!
 
I would like to mention that it is = the opinion of=20 some, that the reason the Renesis moved back to the groove in the = Rotor=20 Housing might be because of the fact of the cast iron being so = thin in=20 that area, whereas the rotor housings have a steel liner to help = retain=20 and withstand the pressure of the "O" ring in that area.
 
Their argument seems reasonable to=20 me!
George (down under)

Back in 2002, the attached pictures = were=20 distributed, showing what happens when the o-ring fills the groove too = completely. Upon heatup, the silicon expands and creates enough = hydraulic=20 pressure to break the cast iron. There was discussion at the time, but = I don't=20 have time to try to find the text that went with these pictures, just = make=20 sure you don't fill the o-ring groove completely.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 = 11:50=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TES = "O"=20 Rings

Kelly,
Good questions, even a percentage = would=20 do!
 
I think Jeff is sick of me, I will = leave that=20 up one up to you old mate!
Given he has suggested shrinking = the "O" rings=20 with a heat gun, I assume they shrink not expand BUT may be expand = before=20 shrinking!?
George ( down under)
George,
     Just what I was looking for !! = Now I=20 wonder what percentage of the
groove area that "Creavy" says needs to be filled and do the=20 teflon-
silicon O-rings expand (grow) under heat ??
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "George Lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>: = --------------

Kelly,
I see what you mean - a quick = check of=20 areas reveal a ratio of area of grove  to = "O" ring=20 cross sectional area as:-
1. .093 =3D 1: .924343 ( for = the .065x .113)=20 proven fit - outer "O" ring!!
 
2. .098 =3D 1: = .859    =20   ( for the .065x .135) OK
3. .1    = =3D  1:=20 .8945868( for the .065x .135) OK
4. .103 =3D 1: .9490484 ( for = the .065x.135)=20 TOO BIG.
 
Given the crush 'cross section' = is=20 different, but the Teflon flows under that pressure, 2 and 3 = should be=20 OK - I'm using your dimension measurements.
 
George ( down = under)
George and All,
       I just realized I = did not=20 answer your question.......I wanted to find a
cross section of the PFA-SIL that was close to the .098 = as called=20 out
in earlier posts for the inner coolent O-ring......I = measured the=20 coolent
O-ring grooves of my housings........Both inner and outer = grooves
measured .065 thousands deep.......Width of the inner = was.135=20 thousands
and width of the outer was .113 thousands........Now can = someone=20 much
better in math than me figure what diameter of = O-ring can we=20 use in the inner
groove wthout causing a hydraulic rupture......The inner = coolent=20 O-ring sees
more heat and pressure than the outer O-ring !! On paper = it=20 appears that
a .093 thousands O-ring has enough crush according to the = depth=20 of the
groove but it is free to rattle around in the .135=20 width.........IMHO
--
Kelly Troyer =
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer): = --------------=20

George,
     I was trying to find out what=20 diameters (cross section) of  the high temp
(500 degree f) PFA-SIL was available.........I wonder = if the=20 (450 degree f)
FEP-SIL might be good enough for the coolent O-rings = but use=20 the high
temp for the rotor side seal O-rings........If the = coolent=20 seals ever see even
450 degrees the aluminum rotor hsgs will probably start = to=20 crush !!
 
"Opinions"
--
Kelly Troyer =
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "George Lendich"=20 <lendich@optusnet.com.au>: -------------- =

Kelly,
What was that in relation = to.
George ( down = under)
Group,
   More info from "Creavey"
--
Kelly Troyer =
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2



From:   
"Jeff Chrysler" <jeff@creavey.com>     Save = Address     Reminder
To:    "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>
Subject:    RE: Sil-PFA .098 = availability
Date:    Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:12:27=20 +0000   [View = Source]

3D""=20

PFA=20 is available in .103=94 cross=20 section.

 

Jeff

 

From: = Kelly Troyer=20 [mailto:keltro@att.net]
Sent: = Thursday, July=20 21, 2005 11:48 AM
To: = Jeff = Chrysler
Subject: = RE: Sil-PFA=20 .098 = availability

 

   =20 Jeff,

     =20 Thanks Jeff........What diameters are available in = PFA-SIL........ =20 .100

would  probably=20 work if = available.

 

  = Kelly=20 = Troyer

=

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C58F60.404D7E60--