X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 952157 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:35:20 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j4LJYXL5028873 for ; Sat, 21 May 2005 15:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005d01c55e3c$23efe460$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Seized 13b Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:34:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005A_01C55E1A.9CAC37E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C55E1A.9CAC37E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable E. Hanover=20 Lynn, I understand what you are talking about with respect to the = bearings. Ed Anderson said there was some problem (not really identified = as to what) that would cause the engine to run for as long as 20 seconds = with no oil pressure! I know if you or I had an engine that wasn't = showing oil pressure in 5 seconds we would be tearing it down to find = out what was wrong. Ed said this was happening almost every time he = started it, even when hot/warm. the engine should be primed at that = point with oil pressure instantly, so something was very screwed up. He = had run it for some time like that so the bearings were taking a beating = at every engine start. The engine had to be pretty tough to hold up as = long as it did. Your jointer example probably didn't run up to 2K rpm on = start up every time either. A very small film will work for some time, = but higher surface speeds require more lubrication at all times. Or = perhaps I should clarify, they require the oil pressure to "float" the = bearing. In a close fitted plain bearing wery little oil runs through at = a given time. It depends on the design clearance. Bill Jepson Wait Bill, I am not certain if you are referring to MY oil system or = what I reported on from Andy on HIS oil system{:>). My personal opinion is that Andy's use of a rubber hose on the suction = side for the oil pickup was destined for problems - either an air leak = or the hose partially collapsing from the heat and suction - but, that = is just my opinion. I think my view is identical to yours, Bill, regarding delay in oil = pressure build up, towit in my original message: Now, I for one would consider it a problem if I couldn't get oil = pressure within 1-2 seconds of firing up the engine (regardless of = orientation) , I would cringe thinking of metal on metal rubbing, = heating, eroding, etc. I couldn't stand it and would have to fix it. =20 I did identify some of the things that could cause a problem in any = oil pickup including the ordinary pick up if you are not careful But that applies to the pickups in the auto orientation as well. If = you have a leak (didn't use a gasket, sealant, hole in the pickup tube, = stuff stuck on your screen, etc) on the suction side, you are going to = have trouble getting oil pressure quickly. =20 I have fortunately never had any oil problems (if you don't count = the time I did not get the key situated properly on the oil pump shaft = {:>)) and certainly would not tolerate a 20 +second lag in oil pressure. = But, I do pay careful attention that my metal plate is sealed as well = as bolted to the oil pickup opening. My metal tubes actually extends = approx 1/2" into the oil pickup hole. Ed A ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C55E1A.9CAC37E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 E.=20 Hanover 
Lynn, I understand what you are talking about with respect to the = bearings. Ed Anderson said there was some problem (not really = identified as to=20 what) that would cause the engine to run for as long as 20 seconds = with no oil=20 pressure! I know if you or I had an engine that wasn't showing oil = pressure in=20 5 seconds we would be tearing it down to find out what was wrong. Ed = said this=20 was happening almost every time he started it, even when hot/warm. the = engine=20 should be primed at that point with oil pressure instantly, so = something was=20 very screwed up. He had run it for some time like that so the bearings = were=20 taking a beating at every engine start. The engine had to be pretty = tough to=20 hold up as long as it did. Your jointer example probably didn't run up = to 2K=20 rpm on start up every time either. A very small film will work for = some time,=20 but higher surface speeds require more lubrication at all times. Or = perhaps I=20 should clarify, they require the oil pressure to "float" the bearing. = In a=20 close fitted plain bearing wery little oil runs through at a given = time. It=20 depends on the design clearance.
Bill Jepson
 
 
 
Wait Bill, I am not certain if you are referring = to=20 MY oil system or what I reported on from Andy on = HIS=20 oil system{:>).
 
My personal opinion is that Andy's use of a = rubber hose=20 on the suction side for the oil pickup was destined for problems - = either an=20 air leak or the hose partially collapsing from the heat and suction - = but,=20 that is just my opinion.
 
I think my view is identical to yours, Bill, =  regarding=20 delay in oil pressure build up, towit in my original = message:
 
Now, I for one would consider it a = problem if I=20 couldn't  get oil pressure within 1-2 seconds  of = firing up the=20 engine (regardless of orientation) , I would cringe thinking of metal = on metal=20 rubbing, heating, eroding, etc.  I couldn't stand it and would = have to=20 fix it. 
 
I did identify some of the things that = could=20 cause  a problem in any oil pickup including the ordinary pick up = if you=20 are not careful
 
 But that applies  to the = pickups in the=20 auto orientation as well.  If you have a leak (didn't use a = gasket,=20 sealant, hole in the pickup tube, stuff stuck on your screen, = etc) on the=20 suction side, you are going to have trouble getting oil pressure=20 quickly. 
 
 
  I have fortunately never had any oil = problems=20 (if you don't count the time I did not get the key situated properly = on the=20 oil pump shaft {:>)) and certainly would not tolerate a 20 +second = lag in=20 oil pressure.  But, I do pay careful attention that my metal = plate is=20 sealed as well as bolted to the oil pickup opening.  My metal = tubes=20 actually extends approx 1/2" into the oil pickup hole.
 
Ed A
 
 
 
 
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