X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 951260 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:07:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j4KJ6nL5011522 for ; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001501c55d6f$1876d080$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Seized 13b - accident prevention Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:06:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C55D4D.9137DEF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C55D4D.9137DEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Seized 13b - accident prevention Two things about his set up doomed it from my view point. =20 1. He had approx 18-24" of distance between his pump pickup and the = bottom of his sum - clearly a long way uphill if the pump had drained = and was not primed. He told me that it often took over a minute for the = oil pressure to come up. This is clearly the issue. The gear style pump is very ineffective = pumping air. You'd like to have a setup where the oil is present at the = pump inlet; or the surface of the oil in the pan within a couple of = inches of the pump at startup. And, as mentioned, there must not be air = leaks between an oil surface below the pump and the pump inlet. This brings me back to a suggestion I made a couple of weeks ago; and is = further reinforced by our loss of Paul Conner. We have to help each = other prevent engine-out scenarios. This case with Andy could so easily = have caused an in-flight accident, and could so easily have been = prevented if someone had pointed out to him that he had a potential = failure mode waiting to happen. Or perhaps someone did, and he chose to = ignore; I don't know. I'm still wondering if would be possible to have regional teams of 2-3 = people with some knowledge and experience with rotary installations, who = could be called upon for critiques, questions, and suggestions on rotary = engine installations before first flights. Maybe we are just too spread = around. I would be willing to travel 2-3 hrs by car, or when my plane = is flying; 2-3 hrs by air at no charge to participate on such a team. = I'm certainly not the expert, but I think I could be potentially = helpful. And I'd certainly appreciate such a session with others going = over my installation. =20 Am I way off the mark here? Could/would this work? Are there others = out there who would participate as "examiners"? Would you welcome such = "look-over" on your project? Do you think it would do any good? I'd = like some feedback on this, and then see whether it makes sense to = pursue it any further. I'd be willing to coordinate with Paul Lamar to see if there are folks = on his list (that aren't also here) who would participate. Al No question in my mind that makes lots of sense. I still appreicate = people looking over my installation and pointings things out. I have = one bolt that mounts my PSRU to my rear housing that requires a nut (the = rest have threads in the block). Well, I wish I had a dollar everytime = someone pointed out the bolt next to it that does NOT have a nut = (threaded block). However, I really appreciate the folks that do point = it out - as it makes me feel that there are many pairs of eyeballs = looking over my installation - and that's always good. =20 Recently after my rebuild several sharp eyed folks noted that there was = just a tad of light showing under the head of one of my four rear = engine mounting bolts. Apparently, I switched the two adjacent bolts = and either one is slightly longer, one of the holes is less deep or = something fell in the bolt hold and is preventing the bolt from going = all the way down. I could have looked at it 100 years and probably = never caught it. Ed ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C55D4D.9137DEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Al=20 Gietzen
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 = 2:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Seized 13b - accident = prevention


 Two things about his set up doomed it from my view = point. 

1.  He had approx 18-24" of distance between = his pump=20 pickup and the bottom of his sum - clearly a long way uphill if the pump = had=20 drained and was not primed.  He told me that it often took over a = minute=20 for the oil pressure to come up.

This is clearly the issue.  = The=20 gear style pump is very ineffective pumping air.  You=92d like to = have a=20 setup where the oil is present at the pump inlet; or the surface of the = oil in=20 the pan within a couple of inches of the pump at startup.  And, as=20 mentioned, there must not be air leaks between an oil surface below the = pump and=20 the pump inlet.

This brings me back to a suggestion I made a = couple of=20 weeks ago; and is further reinforced by our loss of Paul Conner.  = We have=20 to help each other prevent engine-out scenarios.  This case with = Andy could=20 so easily have caused an in-flight accident, and could so easily have = been=20 prevented if someone had pointed out to him that he had a potential = failure mode=20 waiting to happen.  Or perhaps someone did, and he chose to ignore; = I don=92t=20 know.

I=92m still wondering if would be possible to have regional = teams of=20 2-3 people with some knowledge and experience with rotary installations, = who=20 could be called upon for critiques, questions, and suggestions on rotary = engine=20 installations before first flights. Maybe we are just too spread = around.  I=20 would be willing to travel 2-3 hrs by car, or when my plane is flying; = 2-3 hrs=20 by air at no charge to participate on such a team.  I=92m certainly = not the=20 expert, but I think I could be potentially helpful.  And I=92d = certainly=20 appreciate such a session with others going over my installation. =20

Am I way off the mark here?  Could/would this work?  = Are there=20 others out there who would participate as =93examiners=94?  Would = you welcome=20 such =93look-over=94 on your project?  Do you think it would do any = good? I=92d=20 like some feedback on this, and then see whether it makes sense to = pursue it any=20 further.

I=92d be willing to coordinate with Paul Lamar to see if = there are=20 folks on his list (that aren=92t also here) who would=20 participate.

Al

No question in my mind that makes = lots of=20 sense.  I still appreicate people looking over my installation and=20 pointings things out.  I have one bolt that mounts my PSRU to my = rear=20 housing that requires a nut (the rest have threads in the block).  = Well, I=20 wish I had a dollar everytime someone pointed out the bolt next to it = that does=20 NOT have a nut (threaded block).  However, I really appreciate the = folks=20 that do point it out - as it makes me feel that there are many pairs of = eyeballs=20 looking over my installation - and that's always good.  =

Recently=20 after my rebuild several sharp eyed folks noted that there was just a = tad of=20 light showing  under the head of one of my four rear engine = mounting=20 bolts.  Apparently, I switched the two adjacent bolts and either = one is=20 slightly longer, one of the holes is less deep or something fell in the = bolt=20 hold and is preventing the bolt from going all the way down.  I = could have=20 looked at it 100 years and probably never caught=20 it.

Ed ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C55D4D.9137DEF0--