Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.220] (HELO priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 880898 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:02:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.220; envelope-from=echolakeresort@telus.net Received: from [207.194.26.136] by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050417180110.KIMZ7918.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[207.194.26.136]> for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:01:10 -0600 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.308 [266.9.15]); Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:01:08 -0700 Message-Id: <4262A460.000001.02692@BOUCHER-ODDLE24> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:01:04 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001609) From: "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" References: To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Apex Seal Groove Wear and Air Filters was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotors, New housings X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-4262A4642581=======" --=======AVGMAIL-4262A4642581======= Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_SDR3QL80000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_SDR3QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Leon=0D You have a point regarding air filter use on water, when Mt St Helen (Washington state) erupted the first time I had a shop in Vancouver BC Canada (about 300miles away) even at that distance, one of the fleets of vehicle that we serviced had to have the air filters replaced every secon= d day( even a week the eruption).=0D I made the crack about no need for an air filter for a float plane in Canada, but actually much of the time float planes are started on the lak= e shores with the engine above the ground instead of the water. The other thing about air filters on an airplane, an alternate air source (like a slightly spring loaded flat) should be supplied ( in a float plane case , water could splash onto the element & freeze solid at altitude, blocking = air to the intake). On the rotor apex seal subject, I agree with you regardin= g the amount of wear on the rotor seal slot & seal has to be a lot more tha= n Ed's to spit out the seals. I drove my used engine supplier nuts yesterd= ay, measured 6 different rotors & all were from 2.13 to 2.28 mm, he old me they use these rotors regularly for a long time & never had a problem. Mi= ne are 2.17 to 2.26mm, So I guess I'l have to buy new rotors.=0D Georges Boucher=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 04/16/05 23:17:50=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Apex Seal Groove Wear and Air Filters was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotors, New housings=0D =0D Hi Guys,=0D =0D Just need to clarify something that I have been discussing off list with = Ed. I don't THINK (but I'm not really sure) that his apex seal collapsed an= d did the damage. The grooves are not badly worn enough, nor are the seals sufficiently thin enough to turn in the grooves. Apex seals don't normal= ly break unless clouted by some obdurate object, and we can't blame insane = RPM or detonation as the culprit either. So while the jury remains out on it= ,=20 I remain of the opinion that his engine swallowed something solid in the shape of the diamond impressions left in his rotor. =0D =0D Further, I thought I'd offer a little diatribe/rant on "Ingestion of Foreign Objects" based on 32+ years of observation and experience with Wankel engines. As an aside, I cracked up when I read a "Japlish" exhortation that was included in the instructions of a HKS turbo kit I purchased back in the early '80s. It said: "Prease being careful not to allow any alien into port" Prescient advice indeed!=0D =0D Now over the years, I have found that the major cause of apex seal groov= e wear is ingestion of abrasive material. The air ALWAYS contains a certai= n amount of fine dust, except just after a rain storm. Proof of this is t= he patina of crud left by said rain on any shiny surface, most obvious on c= ar duco. Here in Oz, we often get thick orange/brown dust deposits from du= st storms originating out in the desert hundreds of miles west of the city o= n the other side of the Great Dividing Range.=0D =0D Now that very same dust, invisible though it may be, will act as a fine lapping paste: if allowed into the engine, will, depending on the concentration, sooner or later eventually chop out the apex seal grooves= ,=20 and the corner seal grooves. It will accumulate in the grooves and the lapping action gets worse over time as the paste gets thicker.=0D =0D Ed has told me that there is some construction work going on near his han= gar and his aircaft is often covered with a film of dust. That dust will a= lso be all over the tarmac, taxiways, on the grass verges, and in the air itself. If you are following another aircraft, you are GUARANTEED to co= p a lung full of fine dust, whether you can see it or not. It stands to rea= son seeing that any engine is just an air pump, that it will act as a very efficient vacuum cleaner.=0D =0D Which gents, is why you should always supply your engine with nothing bu= t clean filtered air AND fuel. Most people wouldn't THINK about running a fuel system without a fuel filter and a water trap.=0D =0D Additionally, a decent filter will also stop the rocks and pebbles, and grains of sand that can get thrown up by the prop wash of the preceeding aircraft, as well as the almost ubiquitous fine dust. Wankel engines in particular are not very tolerant of being fed a meal of anything solid. O= ne small pebble, or a decent sized grain of quartz sand or bluestone is sufficient to take out an apex seal. (And please dont' tell me it can't happen as I've seen the results with my own eyes on more than one occasio= n).=0D =0D I realise that there will be a bunch of people on this list who feel air filters are un-necessary, but we can all become the victims and prisoner= s of our own (often false) belief systems, no matter how passionately and sincerely they are held. (I've no need to remind you that there once was= a bloke who said that EWPs COULDN'T cool a rotary). =0D =0D So even if you do fly off water, you still can be exposed to the product= s of dust storms from other parts of the country, or volcanic ash (both of= ten invisible - ask the guys in the BA 747 some years ago!).=0D =0D As a corollary, on many occasions, I have pulled down engines that have had up to 550,000 kms on them (mainly 12A RX7 engines). Those that have = had regular servicing (regular oil and [air oil, & fuel] filter changes) invariably have pristine rotors, that show little or negiglible apex sea= l groove wear. OTOH, I have seen engine "chop out" in as little as six months when run with a faulty air cleaner, and run in dusty environments= =2E=0D =0D Two things are important to prevent groove wear. Proper lubrication - if the surfaces don't touch, they cannot wear - and elimination of abrasive particles - which, when mixed with lubricant, acts as a VERY efficient lapping compound..=0D =0D Further, everyone should be scrupulously paranoid about loose objects getting into the inlet tract. In the past 32+ years, I've seen the sad results of just about everything being ingested - nuts, bolts, studs, spring & flat washers, carby check balls, paper clips, lock wire off-cut= s, bits of cardboard, plastic, alloy trimmings, metal filings and turning= s etc, as well as sand, pebbles, and small rocks. NOTHING good has EVER come of feeding a Wankel with any of this sort of detritus. So please be extremely paranoid about inlet tract cleanliness after working on it.=0D =0D While I'm on this topic, I should also exhort you to treat the exhaust system with the same degree of cleanliness. Untill the engine actually fires, it doesn't really know that the exhaust port is an egress apeture.= I ve have seen stuff sucked up out of exhausts (particulalry weld spatter,=20 and even pieces of rag used to prevent stuff falling INTO the exhaust and inadvertently left there!). =0D =0D So that's my additional palm full of Roubles for today.=0D =0D Cheers,=0D =0D Leon=0D =0D =0D ----- Original Message ----- =0D From: Ed Anderson =0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0D Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:54 AM=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotors, New housings=0D =0D =0D Hi Ken,=0D =0D I really, really have no interest in running for your title, believe me! {:>). I am inclined to agree that milling out the slot may indeed take y= ou pass some metal hardening that lessens the wear. While I must admit that= I am still a bit skeptical about the dust doing it to me in 150 hours, I th= ink the rotors had been run hard when I got them but just didn't know what to check for. But, in any case I am going to add a filter figuring it proba= bly won't hurt. Besides, If I didn't add a filter and something happened aga= in, I'd never hear the end of it from my friend, Leon.=0D =0D New rotors and housing are ordered. I figured depending on how Jerry Hey and his PP project turns out, I might use them to practice cutting PP po= rt and then turn two of my good NA housings into PP housings - down the road= =2E=0D =0D Ed=0D ----- Original Message ----- =0D From: Ken Welter =0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0D Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 4:40 PM=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotors, New housings=0D =0D =0D I would look into getting 85-85 GSELE rotors with the 3 mm seals, you would also need the weights to match them, then machine out your rotors f= or a spare engine, you may need one to bale you out in the future, if you ke= ep this up you may knock me off the seat as president of the dead stick club= =2E=0D I am now running rotors machined out to 3 mm seals and at about 400 hrs= on them I can tell by checking through the exhaust port that the seal groove= s are getting V'ed out and getting sloppy so I am now putting another engin= e together, on this one the rotors are in prime shape so I think I will run Tracy's 2mm seals.=0D Also I think that the groves may be hardened and by machining the groves out makes them softer as they shouldn't have worn out in only 400 hrs.=0D Ken=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D Well, the decision has been made. Thanks in part to the wife's continued interest in my warm body on cold winter nights, the decision has been ma= de to purchase new rotors and rotor housings. $$ but apparently I am worth = it {:>)=0D =0D I looked into milling out the slots to 3mm and that would have been the cheaper approach - but cheap approach is probably partly responsible for = me being in this situation - so going to try a different approach this time.= =20 Besides leery of using a rotor which clearly has been subjected to sufficient loads to scrape metal off its surface and peen over apex slot.= =0D =0D In the process of getting quotes.=0D =0D Ed=0D =0D Ed Anderson=0D Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=0D Matthews, NC=0D eanderson@carolina.rr.com=0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_SDR3QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Hi! Leon
You have a point regarding air filter use on water, when Mt St Helen= (Washington state) erupted the first time I had a shop in Vancouver BC C= anada (about 300miles away) even at that distance, one of the fleets of v= ehicle that we serviced had to have the air filters replaced every second= day( even a week the eruption).
 I made the crack about no need for an air filter for a float p= lane in Canada, but actually much of the time float planes are started on= the lake shores with the engine above the ground instead of the water. T= he other thing about air filters on an airplane, an alternate air source = (like a slightly spring loaded flat) should be supplied ( in a float plan= e case , water could splash onto the element & freeze solid at altitu= de, blocking air to the intake). On the rotor apex seal subject, I agree = with you regarding the amount of wear on the rotor seal slot & s= eal has to be a lot more than Ed's  to spit out the seals. I drove m= y used engine supplier nuts yesterday, measured 6 different  ro= tors  & all were from 2.13 to 2.28 mm, he old me they use these = rotors regularly for a long time & never had a problem. Mine are 2.17= to 2.26mm, So I guess I'l have to buy new rotors.
Georges Boucher
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 04/16/05 23:= 17:50
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Apex Seal Groove Wear and Air Filters was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New roto= rs, New housings
 
Hi Guys,
 
Just need to clarify something that I ha= ve been discussing off list with Ed.   I don't THINK (but I'm n= ot really sure) that his apex seal collapsed and did the damage. The= grooves are not badly worn enough,  nor are the seals sufficiently = thin enough to turn in the grooves.  Apex seals don't normally break= unless clouted by some obdurate object,  and we can't blame insane = RPM or detonation as the culprit either.  So while the jury rem= ains out on it,  I remain of the opinion that his engine swallo= wed something solid in the shape of the diamond impressions left in his r= otor. 
 
Further,  I thought I'd offer a lit= tle diatribe/rant on "Ingestion of Foreign Objects" based on 32+ years of= observation and experience with Wankel engines.  As an aside, = I cracked up when I read a "Japlish" exhortation that was included in th= e instructions of a HKS turbo kit I purchased back in the early '80s.&nbs= p; It said:  "Prease being careful not to allow any alien into port"=   Prescient advice indeed!
 
Now over the years,  I have found t= hat the major cause of apex seal groove wear is ingestion of abrasive mat= erial.  The air ALWAYS contains a certain amount of fine dust, = except just after a rain storm.  Proof of this is the patina of cru= d left by said rain on any shiny surface,  most obvious on car duco.=   Here in Oz,  we often get thick orange/brown dust deposits fr= om dust storms originating out in the desert hundreds of miles west&= nbsp;of the city on the other side of the Great Dividing Range.
 
Now that very same dust,  invisible= though it may be,  will act as a fine lapping paste: if allowe= d into the engine,  will,  depending on the concentration, = ; sooner or later eventually chop out the apex seal grooves,  a= nd the corner seal grooves.  It will accumulate in the grooves and t= he lapping action gets worse over time as the paste gets thicker.<= /DIV>
 
Ed has told me that there is some c= onstruction work going on near his hangar,  and his aircaft is often= covered with a film of dust.  That dust will also be all over the t= armac,  taxiways,  on the grass verges, and in the air its= elf.  If you are following another aircraft,  you are GUARANTEE= D to cop a lung full of fine dust,  whether you can see it or not.&n= bsp; It stands to reason,  seeing that any engine is just an air pum= p,  that it will act as a very efficient vacuum cleaner.
 
Which gents,  is why you should alw= ays supply your engine with nothing but clean filtered air AND fuel.=   Most people wouldn't THINK about running a fuel system without a f= uel filter and a water trap.
 
Additionally,  a decent filter will= also stop the rocks and pebbles,  and grains of sand that can get t= hrown up by the prop wash of the preceeding aircraft,  as well as th= e almost ubiquitous fine dust.  Wankel engines in particular ar= e not very tolerant of being fed a meal of anything solid. One small= pebble,  or a decent sized grain of quartz sand or bluestone is suf= ficient to take out an apex seal. (And please dont' tell me it can't= happen as I've seen the results with my own eyes on more than one occasi= on).
 
 I realise that there will be a bun= ch of people on this list who feel air filters are un-necessary,&nbs= p; but we can all become the victims and prisoners of our own (often fals= e) belief systems,  no matter how passionately and sincerely they ar= e held.  (I've no need to remind you that there once was a bloke who= said that EWPs COULDN'T cool a rotary). 
 
So even if you do fly off water,&nb= sp; you still can be exposed to the products of dust storms from other pa= rts of the country,  or volcanic ash (both often invisible - ask the= guys in the BA 747 some years ago!).
 
As a corollary,  on many occasions,=   I have pulled down engines that have had up to 550,000 kms on them= (mainly 12A RX7 engines).  Those that have had regular servicing (r= egular oil and [air oil,  & fuel] filter changes) invariably hav= e pristine rotors,  that show little or negiglible apex seal groove = wear.  OTOH,  I have seen engine "chop out" in as little as six= months when run with a faulty air cleaner,  and run in dusty enviro= nments.
 
Two things are important to prevent groo= ve wear.  Proper lubrication - if the surfaces don't touch,  th= ey cannot wear - and elimination of abrasive particles - which,  whe= n mixed with lubricant,  acts as a VERY efficient lapping compound..=
 
Further,  everyone should be scrupu= lously paranoid about loose objects getting into the inlet tract.  I= n the past 32+ years,  I've seen the sad results of just about = everything being ingested - nuts,  bolts, studs, spring&nb= sp;& flat washers, carby check balls,  paper clips, lock wi= re off-cuts, bits of cardboard,  plastic,  alloy trimmings,&nbs= p; metal filings and turnings etc,  as well as sand,  pebbles,&= nbsp; and small rocks.  NOTHING good has EVER come of feeding a= Wankel with any of this sort of detritus.  So please be extremely p= aranoid about inlet tract cleanliness after working on it.
 
While I'm on this topic,  I should = also exhort you to treat the exhaust system with the same degree of clean= liness.  Untill the engine actually fires, it doesn't really know th= at the exhaust port is an egress apeture.  I've have seen stuff suck= ed up out of exhausts (particulalry weld spatter,  and even pieces o= f rag used to prevent stuff falling INTO the exhaust and inadvertent= ly left there!). 
 
So that's my additional palm full o= f Roubles for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
 
 
----- Original Message -----
<= B>From: Ed Anderson
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:54= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotor= s, New housings

Hi Ken,
 
I really, really have no interest in run= ning for your title,  believe me! {:>).  I am inclined = to agree that milling out the slot may indeed take you pass some metal ha= rdening that lessens the wear.  While I must admit that I am still a= bit skeptical about the dust doing it to me in 150 hours, I think the ro= tors had been run hard when I got them but just didn't know what to check= for.  But, in any case I am going to add a filter figuring it proba= bly won't hurt.  Besides, If I didn't add a filter and somethin= g happened again, I'd never hear the end of it from my friend, Leon.
 
New rotors and housing are ordered. = ; I figured depending on how Jerry Hey and his PP project turns out, I mi= ght use them to practice cutting  PP port and then turn two of my go= od NA housings into PP housings - down the road.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
<= B>From: Ken Welter
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 4:4= 0 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotor= s, New housings

  I would look into getting 85-85 GSELE rotors with the 3 mm se= als, you would also need the weights to match them, then machine out your= rotors for a spare engine, you may need one to bale you out in the futur= e, if you keep this up you may knock me off the seat as president of the = dead stick club.
  I am now running rotors machined out to 3 mm seals and at abo= ut 400 hrs on them I can tell by checking through the exhaust port that t= he seal grooves are getting V'ed out and getting sloppy so I am now putti= ng another engine together, on this one the rotors are in prime shape so = I think I will run Tracy's 2mm seals.
 Also I think that the groves may be hardened and by machining = the groves out makes them softer as they shouldn't have worn out in only = 400 hrs.
  Ken



Well, the decis= ion has been made.  Thanks in part to the wife's continued interest = in my warm body on  cold winter nights, the decision has been made t= o purchase new rotors and rotor housings.  $$ but apparently I am wo= rth it {:>)
 
I looked into m= illing out the slots to 3mm and that would have been the cheaper approach= - but cheap approach is probably partly responsible for me being in this= situation - so going to try a different approach this time.  Beside= s leery of using a rotor which clearly has been subjected to sufficient l= oads to scrape metal off its surface and peen over apex slot.
 
In the process = of getting quotes.
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
= Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina= =2Err.com

 
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