X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 870016 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:02:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.66; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from paul52u7f5qyav ([209.214.44.82]) by imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with SMTP id <20050415030203.DEYC2186.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net@paul52u7f5qyav> for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:02:03 -0400 Message-ID: <005301c54167$74fb7280$522cd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cost of Ceramic Seals Was Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:01:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5413D.89790F30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5413D.89790F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They advertise them on Ebay for a buy-it-now price of $1200.00. Paul = Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cost of Ceramic Seals Was Re: Rx-8 Rotors in = Rx-7 Block Ed, I must say, from what Lynn and others say, these ceramic seals last = forever, especially under our conditions. I guess it boils down to what you can afford, they would certainly = cause less wear on the housing as well.=20 I will have to look at that down the track! George ( down under) Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the seals are only $300 each or $1800 = for a set - only 1/2 the price I first mentioned {:>) Ed Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic seals Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- that means about $1800 = (yes!) for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor engine. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block It would seem to me that they are saying they run the rotors = backwards - that would put the recess in the rotor face backwards. The deeper side is to the side of rotation I'm sure that would = cause some power loss - then again I'm not the expert! The ceramic apex seals are the seals of choice, I didn't know they = were that expensive! George (down under) Appended below is an e mail from the owner of MazdaTrix about = using the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block. Interesting reading, now if only = the ceramic seals were not $3600 for a set for two rotors I'd be ready = {:>). Makes for interesting reading. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an RX-7 = forum member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it = interesting: We are using RX-8 rotors in one of our SCCA E/Production "street = port" 86-91 13B non-turbo engines. We do no mods to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor = bearing). We are using RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel = seals warped too much having to cross the exhaust port). (There IS enough metal to cut the apex seal groove for either = 86-91 2mm seals or earlier 3mm seals -- we are looking into making that = service available, but are not ready yet) The rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, rear in front) so = the angle cut on the side of the rotor gives more intake opening timing = (RX-8 uses the cuts for the side exhaust ports). Do not use the "oil scraper ring" outside the second oil control = ring. DO NOT use RX-8 corner seals -- they DESTROY 86-91 side housings = !!!! (use 86-91 corner seals, TRUST ME). They ARE lighter than 89-91 non-turbo rotors, have higher = compression, and are less expensive. With all of the above said: We have YET to attain even the SAME = horsepower on the dyno as we are getting from our race engine(s) using = the 89-91 non-turbo rotors !!! Potentials: With the RX-8 rotor having the side seal further outboard, we = were able to increase the (ported) intake opening timing versus the = earlier rotors -- it may be too much ??? (does not seem likely) Running the rotors with the angle cut for intake opening may = also be in the above category. We always set pre-92 side seal clearance at about .0015 (1 1/2 = thou). The SMALLEST clearance we could get, using the LONGEST of the = available "pre-sized" RX-8 side seals was about .010 (10 thou), with the = worst on this set of rotors of about .016 (16 thou). This gives a much = lower "sealing" than we like. Other than the above, at this time we are not at all sure why = the power is less than when using the earlier rotors. No, we have not done the REAL test -- run the SAME engine on the = dyno, and only swap the rotors (backwards, then normal). That equals = three builds, and three full dyno on-and-offs + dyno sessions.=20 Dave Lemon,=20 Owner of Mazdatrix,=20 The dyno operator and driver of the E/P car -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.9 - Release Date: 4/13/2005 ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C5413D.89790F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
They advertise them on Ebay for a = buy-it-now price=20 of $1200.00.  Paul Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 = 5:14=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cost = of Ceramic=20 Seals Was Re: Rx-8 Rotors in Rx-7 Block

Ed,
I must say, from what Lynn and others = say, these=20 ceramic seals last forever, especially under our = conditions.
 
I guess it boils down to what you can = afford,=20 they would certainly cause less wear on the housing as=20 well. 
 
I will have to look at that down the=20 track!
George ( down under)
Sorry, George, I was mistaken, the = seals are=20 only $300 each or $1800 for a set - only 1/2 the price I first = mentioned=20 {:>)
 
Ed
 
Quote from Mazdatrix on Ceramic=20 seals
 
Note!!: These cost about $300 EACH ! -- = that=20 means about $1800 (yes!) for 6 seals to do a 2-rotor=20 engine.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, = 2005 2:38=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Rx-8 Rotors=20 in Rx-7 Block

It would seem to me that they are = saying they=20 run the rotors backwards - that would put the recess in the rotor = face=20 backwards.
 
The deeper side is to the side of = rotation=20 I'm sure that would cause some power loss - then again I'm not the = expert!
 
The ceramic apex seals are the = seals of=20 choice, I didn't know they were that expensive!
 
George (down under)
Appended below is an e mail = from the owner=20 of MazdaTrix about using the Rx-8 rotor in an RX-7 block. =20 Interesting reading, now if only the ceramic seals were not = $3600 for a=20 set for two rotors I'd be ready {:>).  Makes for = interesting=20 reading.
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
 
Here is an e-mail that Dave Lemon from Mazdatrix sent an = RX-7 forum=20 member on the subject. Just thought you guys would find it=20 interesting:



We are using RX-8 rotors in one of = our SCCA=20 E/Production "street port" 86-91 13B non-turbo = engines.

We do no=20 mods to the rotors (except installing the racing rotor = bearing).
We=20 are using RX-8 racing ceramic apex seals (the OEM RX-8 steel = seals=20 warped too much having to cross the exhaust port).
(There IS = enough=20 metal to cut the apex seal groove for either 86-91 2mm seals or = earlier=20 3mm seals -- we are looking into making that service available, = but are=20 not ready yet)
The rotors are run "backwards" (front in rear, = rear in=20 front) so the angle cut on the side of the rotor gives more = intake=20 opening timing (RX-8 uses the cuts for the side exhaust = ports).
Do=20 not use the "oil scraper ring" outside the second oil control=20 ring.
DO NOT use RX-8 corner seals -- they DESTROY 86-91 side = housings !!!! (use 86-91 corner seals, TRUST ME).

They ARE lighter than 89-91 non-turbo = rotors, have=20 higher compression, and are less = expensive.

With=20 all of the above said: We have YET to attain even the SAME = horsepower on=20 the dyno as we are getting from our race engine(s) using the = 89-91=20 non-turbo rotors !!!

Potentials:
With the RX-8 rotor = having=20 the side seal further outboard, we were able to increase the = (ported)=20 intake opening timing versus the earlier rotors -- it may be too = much=20 ??? (does not seem likely)

Running the rotors with the = angle cut=20 for intake opening may also be in the above category.

We = always=20 set pre-92 side seal clearance at about .0015 (1 1/2 thou). The = SMALLEST=20 clearance we could get, using the LONGEST of the available = "pre-sized"=20 RX-8 side seals was about .010 (10 thou), with the worst on this = set of=20 rotors of about .016 (16 thou). This gives a much lower = "sealing" than=20 we like.

Other than the above, at this time we are not at = all=20 sure why the power is less than when using the earlier=20 rotors.

No, we have not done the REAL test -- run the = SAME engine=20 on the dyno, and only swap the rotors (backwards, then normal). = That=20 equals three builds, and three full dyno on-and-offs + dyno = sessions.=20


Dave Lemon,
Owner of Mazdatrix,
The dyno = operator=20 and driver of the E/P = car

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.9 - Release = Date:=20 4/13/2005
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