X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 869425 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:45:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3ENigL5011596 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002801c5414b$f3704120$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B? Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:44:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5412A.6C2A23A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5412A.6C2A23A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, George Appreciate the information on the seal grove. Perhaps we'll just skinny = down one of Tracy's seals as on their web site they are reported 800% = stronger than stock, then just stick them in the RX-8 rotor slot. I = mean even if milling the seals to fit reduces there strength to 200% of = stock that should still be fine. Must discuss with Tracy when he = returns from Sun & Fun Ed=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B? Ed. I finally paid $249.06 Aust if you add 23% (approx exchange rate )you = get $306 - so the $322 sounds more like it. Aim for 30% off recommended = retail on everything!! That will get you close to Trade Price. I checked the height of the Apex seal groove and it is 9.5mm ( .374") Bill agrees that EDM ( wire cut) would be the better option, so I will = go that way, but am yet to confirm prices. You should find wire cutters = everywhere - their all over the place around here. I would love to use the ceramics, but I did get some seals from Tracy = Crook. be careful with the corner side seals the later model Nitrated = housings will stand-up to later model seals and springs, but earlier = model flame hardened housings won't. Definitely don't use the RX8 corner = seals. Another one is that the RX8 front ( bully) bolt is longer and probably = explains why Tracy had a concern fitting the RX8 pulley and timing gear = - he was probably using a RX7 bolt. It's longer by 1/2". George ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B? Thanks for the information, George The prices I am getting on the Rx-8 rotors here have ranged from = $322 USD from Mazdatrix to $378.86 from a Mazda discount parts place = (they pay the shipping). MAzdatrix apparently got by running the = standard RX-7 ceramic apex seals in the Rx-8 rotors. I would assume = they reduced the height of the seals unless the ceramic seals are = narrower than metal seals since they have not indicated finding anyone = to mill the slots deeper as yet. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B? Well Richard, Bill and All, I have to bow my head in shame and confess I one again believed = what I have been told to be true - when in fact it wasn't. I guess I can say the RX8 rotor IS lighter, but not by much. It = weighs in at 4241 Grams or 9.33lbs. A reduction of a bout 2% from the = lighter 89/91rotors. Again I made an error, the RX8 rotor appears to be symmetrical in = the compression depression. So the chap who runs them backwards may be = OK in doing so. My advice ( I think I will use this statement more often) is that = the depth of cut for the RX7 is 9.5mm ( appears to be correct) the RX8 = appears to be 6.25mm, by my measurements. An additional 3.25 cut in = depth is required for the earlier Apex seals.. Width of the RX8 Rotor is 79.75mm compared to an old rotor I have = here that's 79.65mm The RX rotor is .1mm bigger ( approx)=20 Anything else you chaps need - I'm depressed as I was looking = forward to that Rotor weight savings. George ( down under) Kelly, absolutely! Richard Sohn N-2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:41 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B? Richard, But we would include the side seals and springs ,end = seals,springs (and plugs ), and oil seal rings and respective O-rings ? Is that asumption = correct ? -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "richard sohn" = : --------------=20 George,=20 I got the information from my engineering education, and = also Leon confirmed it in one of his recent postings on the subject.=20 One more thing, the difference between the two rotors = balancing each other and needing balance weights anyway, is static = balancing vs. dynamic balancing. Richard Sohn N-2071U=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 = 13B? Richard, This goes against my advice as all components in movement = affect the rotating mass. It would be like not allowing for rings in a piston in the = balance equation. However I will check on that aspect. Where did you obtain = that information George ( down under) From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:02 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 = 13B? Bill,=20 If you find out before I do will you let me know about = the additional depth to be cut. On the balancing; I have to cover all that with my one = rotor ( no biggie), I can give you all that stuff a little down the = track it will only require lightening the counter balance weights a = little. The e-shaft is the same, the rotors lighter =3D = lighter balance weights. There may be some oil volume difference (read weight) = , but I should have that soon, as well the rotor weight. BTW Tracy's = apex seals are 33 grams ( per rotor) - got them to-day. Has anyone got a set of new Mazda apex seals handy to = weigh - I guess there wouldn't be much in it anyway - just curious! George ( down under)=20 I am going to look into this a bit more and find out = how much to mill a rotor. A lighter rotor =3D> more rpms without = increasing stress? Ed Don't forget lighter rotors would require = different balance weights. I have heard from various sources that the = Renesis rotor was lighter and then that they weigh the same! Both from = usually reliable sources, go figure. Bill Jepson George, the apex seals do not go into the balance equation = because they are not attached to the rotor.=20 Just my 2c. Richard Sohn N-2071U ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5412A.6C2A23A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, George
 
Appreciate the information on the seal = grove. =20 Perhaps we'll just skinny down one  of Tracy's seals as on their = web site=20 they are reported 800% stronger than stock, then just stick them in the = RX-8=20 rotor slot.  I mean even if milling the seals to fit reduces there = strength=20 to 200% of stock that should still be fine.  Must discuss with = Tracy when=20 he returns from Sun & Fun
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 = 6:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Rx-8 Rotors=20 useable in 91 13B?

Ed.
I finally paid $249.06 Aust if you = add 23%=20 (approx exchange rate )you get $306 - so the $322 sounds more like it. = Aim for=20 30% off recommended retail on everything!! That will get you close to = Trade=20 Price.
 
I checked the height of the Apex seal = groove and=20 it is 9.5mm ( .374")
Bill agrees that EDM ( wire cut) = would be=20 the better option, so I will go that way, but am yet to = confirm=20 prices. You should find wire cutters everywhere - their all over = the=20 place around here.
 
I would love to use the ceramics, but = I did get=20 some seals from Tracy Crook.
 
be careful with the corner side seals = the later=20 model Nitrated housings will stand-up to later model seals and = springs, but=20 earlier model flame hardened housings won't. Definitely don't use the = RX8=20 corner seals.
 
Another one is that the RX8 front ( = bully) bolt=20 is longer and probably explains why Tracy had a concern fitting the = RX8 pulley=20 and timing gear - he was probably using a RX7 bolt. It's longer by=20 1/2".
George
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, April 14, = 2005 10:29=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Rx-8=20 Rotors useable in 91 13B?

Thanks for the information, = George
 
The prices I am getting on the Rx-8 = rotors here=20 have ranged from $322 USD from Mazdatrix to $378.86 from a Mazda = discount=20 parts place (they pay the shipping).  MAzdatrix apparently got = by=20 running the standard RX-7 ceramic apex seals in the Rx-8 = rotors. =20 I would assume they reduced the height of the seals unless the = ceramic seals=20 are narrower than metal seals since they have not indicated finding = anyone=20 to mill the slots deeper as yet.
 
Ed A
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, April 14, = 2005 3:45=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fw: Rx-8=20 Rotors useable in 91 13B?

Well Richard, Bill and = All,
 
I have to bow my head in shame = and confess I=20 one again believed what I have been told to be true - when in fact = it=20 wasn't.
 
I guess I can say the RX8 rotor = IS lighter, but not by much. It = weighs in at=20 4241 Grams or 9.33lbs. A reduction of a bout 2% from the lighter=20 89/91rotors.
 
Again I made an error, the RX8 = rotor appears=20 to be symmetrical in the compression depression. So the chap who = runs them=20 backwards may be OK in doing so.
 
My advice ( I think I will use = this=20 statement more often) is that the depth of cut for the RX7 is = 9.5mm (=20 appears to be correct) the RX8 appears to be 6.25mm, by my=20 measurements. An additional 3.25 cut in depth is required for the = earlier=20 Apex seals..
 
Width of the RX8 Rotor is = 79.75mm=20 compared to an old rotor I have here that's 79.65mm The RX rotor = is .1mm=20 bigger ( approx) 
 
Anything else you chaps need - = I'm depressed=20 as I was looking forward to that Rotor weight = savings.
George ( down under)
Kelly,
absolutely!
 
Richard = Sohn
N-2071U
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer=20
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, April = 13, 2005=20 6:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Fw: Rx-8=20 Rotors useable in 91 13B?

Richard,
     But we would include the side = seals and=20 springs ,end seals,springs (and plugs ),
and oil seal rings and respective O-rings ? Is that = asumption=20 correct ?
--
Kelly Troyer =
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "richard sohn" <unicorn@gdsys.net>: = --------------

George,
I got the information from my engineering education, = and also=20 Leon confirmed it in one of his recent postings on the = subject.=20
One more thing, the difference between the two rotors = balancing=20 each other and needing balance weights anyway, is static = balancing=20 vs. dynamic balancing.
 
Richard Sohn
N-2071U
----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 George Lendich =
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, = April 13,=20 2005 5:02 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Fw:=20 Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B?

Richard,
This goes against my advice as all components in = movement=20 affect the rotating mass.
It would be like not allowing for rings in a piston = in the=20 balance equation.
However I will check on that aspect. Where did you = obtain=20 that information
George ( down under)
From:=20 George = Lendich=20
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: = Wednesday, April=20 13, 2005 12:02 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Fw: Rx-8 Rotors useable in 91 13B?

Bill,
If you find out before I do will you let me know = about=20 the additional depth to be cut.
On the balancing; I have to cover all that with = my one=20 rotor ( no biggie), I can give you all that stuff a = little=20 down the track it will only require lightening=20 the counter balance weights a little.
 
The e-shaft is the same, the rotors lighter =3D = lighter=20 balance weights.
There may be some oil volume difference (read=20 weight) , but I should have that soon, as well = the rotor=20 weight. BTW Tracy's apex seals are 33 grams ( per = rotor) - got=20 them to-day.
 
Has anyone got a set of new Mazda apex seals = handy to=20 weigh - I guess there wouldn't be much in it anyway - = just=20 curious!
 
George ( down under) 
I am going=20 to look into this a bit more and find out how much = to mill a=20 rotor.  A lighter rotor =3D> more rpms = without=20 increasing stress?
 
Ed Don't forget lighter rotors would require = different=20 balance weights. I have heard from various sources = that the=20 Renesis rotor was lighter and then that they weigh = the same!=20 Both from usually reliable sources, go figure.
Bill Jepson
 
George,
the apex seals do not go into the balance = equation=20 because they are not attached to the rotor.
Just my 2c.
 
Richard Sohn
N-2071U
 
=
 
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