Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.168.117] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 523396 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:16:31 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.168.117; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:16:00 -0800 Received: from 65.54.97.152 by BAY3-DAV13.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:15:55 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.97.152] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:15:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008F_01C4C5B6.98D28630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:15:51 -0500 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2004 22:16:00.0883 (UTC) FILETIME=[87700C30:01C4C5E0] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C4C5B6.98D28630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageUnder drive pulley is not likely to be the problem. I flew with = stock and underdrive and the difference was minimal. The underdrive is = probably the way to go if you use the -C drive and rev over 7000 rpm = which some say is the onset speed for cavitation. =20 Tracy (cleaning belly of plane after 7300 rpm test on oil breather = "fix") ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve Brooks=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? Reading these discussions, one thought occurred to me about my = installation. I've been fighting with somewhat high temperatures, and I = have an under drive main pulley. I installed the under drive pulley = because I understood that pump cavitation was a problem at continuous = high RPM's. Now I'm wondering if slowing down the water pump is causing the = temperatures to be higher than they would otherwise be. Steve Brooks (wishing I hadn't thrown away stock pulley) -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jack Beale Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? All, Been following the EWP thread with interest.... Sooooo...., actually knowing little, but suspecting much: I'd suspect that Mazda designed the water pump and flow = characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an idling engine in = Phoenix in the summertime. I'd also bet that the majority of time, a = car is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down the freeway at 70 = mph. My suspicion is that the water pump is designed for some = arbitrary flow rate that will be adequate at idle - and at normal cruise = (with it's attendant increased airflow). I'd guess that the pump is = flowing a much greater volume of water at high RPM's than is really = necessary, because the pump impeller is not variable. The engine = temperature does not remain cold, because the thermostat closes, either = completely or partially to keep the block temperature at 180-deg. Have ya-all ever driven a car with a stuck-open thermostat...? = The engine never warms up. Runs OK, but builds-up sludge and carbon = inside. Therefore (if all that's correct) an EWP will not have to pump a = correspondingly greater volume of water as engine speed increases. I = agree that it will take more flow for a higher horsepower, the question = remains: "What MASS of water per unit measure of time will cool 180 = HP...?" Here's a suggested test for someone with an engine:=20 Run a rotary with an EWP and radiator combination (no temp = regulator) (may need a fan). Run the engine at idle, until the temperature stabilizes at (say) = 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required. Increase the RPM's to 2000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) to = stabilize the temperature at 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required. Increase the RPM's to 3000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) to = stabilize the temperature at 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required Jack Beale -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? As I've suggested before, I don't see saving power consumption as a = reason for considering an EWP, especially considering the losses in = converting mech energy to electrical and back again. =20 I think the biggest chance to save power on cooling is if Mazda is = providing way more than is necessary at our cruise rpms. I have to = suspect that's the case, since Todd is running just fine with only 9.X = gpm. =20 Al (I swear I will not say another word about EWPs; that beheading = thing is just too scary)=20 Ha. Don't worry, my wife would kill me if I stained the carpet :-) = As for EWP's saving power, you'd think that the first people to jump = on that would be the racers. I know that these pumps are sold to drag = racers, but I can't say that I've heard of other types of racers using = these pumps. =20 Hey Lynn,=20 -Are EWP's against the rules? -Has someone determined that they don't save any HP?=20 -Has someone determined that they won't cool the engine in racing = conditions? Cheers, Rusty (just can't have any fun on this list)=20 ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C4C5B6.98D28630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Under drive pulley is not likely to be the problem.  I flew = with stock=20 and underdrive and the difference was minimal.  The underdrive is = probably=20 the way to go if you use the -C drive and rev over 7000 rpm which some = say is=20 the onset speed for cavitation. 
 
Tracy  (cleaning belly of plane after 7300 rpm test on oil = breather=20 "fix")
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve=20 Brooks
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 = 4:22=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP = Info-=20 Lynn?

Reading these discussions, one thought occurred to me about = my=20 installation.  I've been fighting with somewhat high = temperatures, and I=20 have an under drive main pulley.  I installed the under drive = pulley=20 because I understood that pump cavitation was a problem at continuous = high=20 RPM's.
 
Now=20 I'm wondering if slowing down the water pump is causing the = temperatures to be=20 higher than they would otherwise be.
 
Steve Brooks (wishing I hadn't thrown away stock=20 pulley)
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jack=20 Beale
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:05 = PM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info-=20 Lynn?

All,
 
    Been following the EWP thread with=20 interest....
 
    Sooooo...., actually knowing little, but = suspecting=20 much:
 
    I'd suspect that Mazda designed the water = pump and=20 flow characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an idling = engine in=20 Phoenix in the summertime.  I'd also bet that the majority of = time, a=20 car is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down the freeway at = 70=20 mph.
 
    My suspicion is that the water pump is = designed for=20 some arbitrary flow rate that will be adequate at idle - and at = normal=20 cruise (with it's attendant increased airflow).  I'd = guess=20 that the pump is flowing a much greater volume of water at high = RPM's than=20 is really necessary, because the pump impeller is not = variable.  The=20 engine temperature does not remain cold, because the thermostat = closes,=20 either completely or partially to keep the block temperature at=20 180-deg.
 
    Have ya-all ever driven a car with a = stuck-open=20 thermostat...?  The engine never warms up.  Runs OK, but = builds-up=20 sludge and carbon inside.
 
    Therefore (if all that's correct) = an EWP=20 will not have to pump a correspondingly greater volume of water as = engine=20 speed increases.  I agree that it will take more flow for a = higher=20 horsepower, the question remains: "What MASS of water per unit = measure of=20 time will cool 180 HP...?"
 
    Here's a suggested test for someone with an = engine:=20
Run a rotary with an EWP and radiator combination (no = temp=20 regulator) (may need a fan).
Run the engine at idle, until the temperature stabilizes = at=20 (say) 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required.
Increase the RPM's to 2000, and increase the flow rate (if = nec) to=20 stabilize the temperature at 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required.
Increase the RPM's to 3000, and increase the flow rate (if = nec) to=20 stabilize the temperature at 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required
 
Jack Beale
----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn?

As = I=92ve suggested=20 before, I don=92t see saving power consumption as a reason for = considering an=20 EWP, especially considering the losses in converting mech energy to=20 electrical and back again.   
 
I think the=20 biggest chance to save power on cooling is if Mazda is = providing=20 way more than is necessary at our cruise rpms.  I have to = suspect=20 that's the case, since Todd is running just fine with only 9.X=20 gpm.  
 

Al (I swear I will = not say=20 another word about EWPs; that beheading thing is just too = scary) 

 

Ha. =20 Don't worry, my wife would kill me if I stained the carpet = :-)  

 

As for EWP's=20 saving power, you'd think that the first people to jump on that = would be the=20 racers.  I know that these pumps are sold to drag racers, but I = can't=20 say that I've heard of other types of racers using these = pumps. =20

 

Hey Lynn,=20

 

-Are EWP's=20 against the rules?

-Has someone=20 determined that they don't save any=20 HP? 

-Has someone determined that they won't cool the = engine in=20 racing conditions?

 

Cheers,

Rusty (just=20 can't have any fun on this=20 = list) 

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