Return-Path: Received: from out005.verizon.net ([206.46.170.143] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.1) with ESMTP id 409492 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:26:19 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.170.143; envelope-from=rotary.coot@verizon.net Received: from [65.239.43.228] ([65.239.43.168]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040913212548.KXUH7520.out005.verizon.net@[65.239.43.228]> for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:25:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: res0c5l1@incoming.verizon.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:24:16 -0700 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" From: Ken Welter Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1117011486==_ma============" X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [65.239.43.168] at Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:25:44 -0500 --============_-1117011486==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I have lost coolant on takeoff and made a=20 180 and landed but the engine was toast, green=20 smoke coming out the exhaust when I landed and=20 this was only a 2 minute flight, if you lose=20 coolant your coming down. Ken >Randy, >From what I understand, there have been a few=20 >instances of rotaries losing their coolant, for=20 >one reason or another, and continuing to fly to=20 >the nearest airport and landing safely. Once=20 >shut down though, the engine is toast at that=20 >point. This is due to the steel rotors and=20 >aluminum rotor housings. They do not swell and=20 >seize like a standard piston engine. Someone=20 >else with more direct knowledge of this may be=20 >able to add to this. > >The docile failure modes of the rotary though,=20 >is a strong motivator to using the rotary=20 >engine. I have never heard of a sudden=20 >catastrophic failure that led to the engine=20 >stopping due to mechanical failure. I have=20 >heard of several instances of Lycomings and=20 >Continentals failing, like when they drop a=20 >valve, or lose a cylinder, or lose oil pressure=20 >and seize up. > >There are some builders using series water pumps=20 >(EWP) on their engines. That may also be of=20 >interest to you. You can check the archives for=20 >information on those. > >Steve > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 >[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of=20 >Smith, Randy >Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:31 PM >To: Rotary motors in aircraft >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode > >Yes I see. Ok that deals with the ignition.=20 > What I am interested in is the scenario of=20 >coolant loss, a computer that only fires, say,=20 >every third revolution so that although the=20 >engine is producing only partial power, it is=20 >also producing minimum heat. Still enough to=20 >stay airborne, and able to be cooled with the=20 >oil alone. Is this possible? > >-Randy > > >From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 >[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=20 >Of Steve Brooks >Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:22 PM >To: Rotary motors in aircraft >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode > >Randy, >Tracy Crook's controller the EC-2 goes "limp=20 >Home" mode one better. It has 2 separate=20 >computers, an "A" and a "B". If one fails, you=20 >can flip to the other one. It also has an=20 >engine monitor (EM-2) that works with it to=20 >monitor several engine parameters. > >Check out his web site :=20 >http://www.rotaryaviation.com/ > >Steve Brooks > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 >[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of=20 >Smith, Randy >Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:37 PM >To: Rotary motors in aircraft >Subject: [FlyRotary] Limp home mode >Gentlepeople, >I am rather new to the list and normally I just=20 >lurk until I have something to say. Well, in=20 >breaking with that mode I have some thoughts=20 >that I would like some opinions on so if you're=20 >game, here goes=8A >1. I am building a Cozy MKIV. It uses an=20 >NACA scoop embedded in the belly to provide=20 >cooling air. I am thinking of not building the=20 >NACA scoop as I plan to use some sort of=20 >Meredith effect scoop/plenum (ala the P-51) for=20 >cooling. Thoughts? >2. I plan to fly this plane on long flights=20 >over water (around the world is one of my=20 >goals.) Is there an ignition/injection system=20 >that provides some sort of limp home capability=20 >such as what is in the Cadillac Northstar=20 >systems that allows for intermittent firing of=20 >the rotors? This to provide partial power in=20 >situations where I lose coolant overboard and=20 >hopefully, relying on oil cooling, continue to=20 >safety. If not, what is the proper way to=20 >ensure redundancy of the cooling system? >3. In reading several web sites regarding=20 >around the world travel, it appears that apart=20 >from endless bureaucracy and outrageous=20 >landing/handling fees, the largest problem is=20 >fuel availability. Most parts of the world have=20 >no use for 100ll or appear to have never heard=20 >of it. (just kidding, it has to be specially=20 >ordered in many places and sometimes it is quite=20 >suspect.) Is the rotary particular about the=20 >fuel used? I am interested in the SCORE=20 >technology that John Deere came up with and=20 >would really love a diesel rotary in this=20 >regard. Diesel/Jet A/Kerosene is available=20 >almost everywhere. >That is enough for now. My brain hurts. >-Randy "Still looking for a ride to Rough River" Smith >Columbia, SC --============_-1117011486==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode
   Yes I have lost coolant on takeoff and made a 180 and landed but the engine was toast, green smoke coming out the exhaust when I landed and this was only a 2 minute flight, if you lose coolant your coming down.
  Ken




Randy,
From what I understand, there have been a few instances of rotaries losing their coolant, for one reason or another, and continuing to fly to the nearest airport and landing safely.  Once shut down though, the engine is toast at that point.  This is due to the steel rotors and aluminum rotor housings.  They do not swell and seize like a standard piston engine.  Someone else with more direct knowledge of this may be able to add to this.
 
The docile failure modes of the rotary though, is a strong motivator to using the rotary engine.  I have never heard of a sudden catastrophic failure that led to the engine stopping due to mechanical failure.  I have heard of several instances of Lycomings and Continentals failing, like when they drop a valve, or lose a cylinder, or lose oil pressure and seize up.
 
There are some builders using series water pumps (EWP) on their engines.  That may also be of interest to you. You can check the archives for information on those.
 
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Smith, Randy
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:31 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode
Yes I see.  Ok that deals with the ignition.  What I am interested in is the scenario of coolant loss, a computer that only fires, say, every third revolution so that although the engine is producing only partial power, it is also producing minimum heat.  Still enough to stay airborne, and able to be cooled with the oil alone.  Is this possible?
 
-Randy
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Limp home mode
 
Randy,
Tracy Crook's controller the EC-2 goes "limp Home" mode one better.  It has 2 separate computers, an "A" and a "B".  If one fails, you can flip to the other one.  It also has an engine monitor (EM-2) that works with it to monitor several engine parameters.
 
Check out his web site : http://www.rotaryaviation.com/
 
Steve Brooks
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Smith, Randy
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Limp home mode
Gentlepeople,
I am rather new to the list and normally I just lurk until I have something to say.  Well, in breaking with that mode I have some thoughts that I would like some opinions on so if you're game, here goes=8A
1.      I am building a Cozy MKIV.  It uses an NACA scoop embedded in the belly to provide cooling air.  I am thinking of not building the NACA scoop as I plan to use some sort of Meredith effect scoop/plenum (ala the P-51) for cooling.  Thoughts?
2.      I plan to fly this plane on long flights over water (around the world is one of my goals.) Is there an ignition/injection system that provides some sort of limp home capability such as what is in the Cadillac Northstar systems that allows for intermittent firing of the rotors?  This to provide partial power in situations where I lose coolant overboard and hopefully, relying on oil cooling, continue to safety.  If not, what is the proper way to ensure redundancy of the cooling system?
3.      In reading several web sites regarding around the world travel, it appears that apart from endless bureaucracy and outrageous landing/handling fees, the largest problem is fuel availability.  Most parts of the world have no use for 100ll or appear to have never heard of it. (just kidding, it has to be specially ordered in many places and sometimes it is quite suspect.)  Is the rotary particular about the fuel used?  I am interested in the SCORE technology that John Deere came up with and would really love a diesel rotary in this regard.  Diesel/Jet A/Kerosene is available almost everywhere.
That is enough for now.  My brain hurts.
-Randy "Still looking for a ride to Rough River" Smith
Columbia, SC

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