X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:17:54 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [207.46.163.240] (HELO na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6417552 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:30:01 -0400 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.46.163.240; envelope-from=lancair-esp@ustek.com Received: from BL2PR04MB020.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.255.228.25) by BL2PR04MB018.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.255.228.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.731.16; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:29:47 +0000 Received: from BL2PR04MB020.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.5.165]) by BL2PR04MB020.namprd04.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.5.165]) with mapi id 15.00.0731.000; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:29:47 +0000 From: Lancair-ESP X-Original-To: "lml@lancaironline.net" Subject: FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? Thread-Topic: [LML] Flaps on take-off? Thread-Index: AQHOmNU1c24+P1XxUUyrrKZ84iq6HZmUsRSAgAAB2fA= X-Original-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:29:46 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <5ad46ae5e2294159a6e35d9c0469aebc@BL2PR04MB020.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [70.62.14.122] x-forefront-prvs: 0938781D02 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(22974006)(199002)(189002)(13464003)(377454003)(51704005)(19300405004)(74316001)(63696002)(15202345003)(59766001)(77982001)(81542001)(56776001)(81342001)(46102001)(31966008)(54356001)(74876001)(16236675002)(4396001)(80022001)(69226001)(79102001)(53806001)(81686001)(47976001)(80976001)(51856001)(49866001)(16406001)(47736001)(74706001)(50986001)(19580405001)(19580385001)(74662001)(83072001)(47446002)(76786001)(77096001)(56816003)(74502001)(74366001)(76796001)(83322001)(76576001)(54316002)(19580395003)(65816001)(66066001)(33646001)(76482001)(81816001)(24736002);DIR:OUT;SFP:;SCL:1;SRVR:BL2PR04MB018;H:BL2PR04MB020.namprd04.prod.outlook.com;CLIP:70.62.14.122;RD:InfoNoRecords;A:1;MX:1;LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5ad46ae5e2294159a6e35d9c0469aebcBL2PR04MB020namprd04pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ustek.com --_000_5ad46ae5e2294159a6e35d9c0469aebcBL2PR04MB020namprd04pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I practiced that maneuver with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P and f= ound it a non-event. Overhead upwind at 2000 ft agl and slowing to pattern speed in the turn. No flaps until over the fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 do= wn the runway. I realize the IV would take different speeds but it should still be do-able= with a little practice. Robert ES-P N301ES From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:26 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: RE: [LML] Flaps on take-off? That seems a scenario where you would be in better shape with the flaps up.= You very well might make the runway. With flaps down, you likely would n= ot and it would be very dangerous to try and retract them. With the high w= ing loading that all the Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no powe= r. I think almost nobody makes the approach to land with no power. Remember way back in primary training when the instructor had you remove po= wer abeam the numbers and make the landing without having to add power? Do= es anyone practice that maneuver with their Lancair? Bill B ________________________________ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill= Hannahan Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:33 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off? Matt, I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must = ask a question. What do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the eng= ine quits? 1. Land at high speed flaps up. 2. Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while maki= ng all the other decisions and actions required in parallel. 3. ? Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "marv@lancair.net" > To: lml Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? Posted for Matt losangeles >: > I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off so= I >don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a >scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the >requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while distracte= d, > I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am down lo= w >like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, the >plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so. > > I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and slows >your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a coupl= e >seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before th= e >guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two >scenarios). > > Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the >EAA, "There is no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental >aircraft, nor is there a TC". > > Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded th= ier >flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the >hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were mean= t >to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also >likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year to f= ly >all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff. > > "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety" > I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that fla= ps >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so I = can >see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land at ma= kes >such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that >lands at a slower speed. > > Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH makes >sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Mooney >board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard th= e >same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely reckless >and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a >point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with >flaps. > > Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our >planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they alway= s >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the pla= ne >will fly just fine without them. > > Matt > > > ________________________________ > From: Art Jensen > > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv > > Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth remains >that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown the= n >you should not be flying that plane. > > I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe ever= y >instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. If an instructor >reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me. > > Art > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > ________________________________ > From: steve >; To: >; Subject: > [LML] Re: To Marv Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM > I second your post. I am surprised by the comment. > > steve alderman N25SA 360 > > . > -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell > >To: lml > Sent: Mon, A= ug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject: >[LML] To Marv > It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Mat= t >appeared on the LML. This has always been a constructive exchange of >information and ideas. That type of personal comment is not in keeping wi= th >the spirit of cooperative sharing of information. > > Claudette -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --_000_5ad46ae5e2294159a6e35d9c0469aebcBL2PR04MB020namprd04pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

 <= /p>

I practiced that maneuver= with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P and found it a non-event. = ;

Overhead upwind at 2000 f= t agl and slowing to pattern speed in the turn.

No flaps until over the f= ence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down the runway. 

 <= /p>

I realize the IV would ta= ke different speeds but it should still be do-able with a little practice.<= o:p>

 <= /p>

Robert<= /p>

ES-P N301ES

 <= /p>

From: Bill Bra= dburry [mailto:bbradburry@bells= outh.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:26 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: RE: [LML] Flaps on take-off?

 

That seems a scenario where yo= u would be in better shape with the flaps up.  You very well might mak= e the runway.  With flaps down, you likely would not and it would be very dangerous to try and retract them.  With the high wing loadin= g that all the Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no power.  I= think almost nobody makes the approach to land with no power.

Remember way back in primary t= raining when the instructor had you remove power abeam the numbers and make= the landing without having to add power?  Does anyone practice that maneuver with their Lancair?

 

Bill B

 

 

Ma= tt, I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must as= k a question.

&n= bsp;

What do= you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the engine qui= ts?

&n= bsp;

1. = ; Land at high speed flaps up.

&n= bsp;

2. = ;  Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while m= aking all the other decisions and actions required in parallel.<= /span>

&n= bsp;

3. = ;  ?

&n= bsp;

Re= gards,

Bi= ll Hannahan

 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: &q= uot;marv@lancair.net" <marv@lancair.net>
To: lml <lml>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?

 




Posted for Matt losangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>:

> I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off= so I
>don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a=
>scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to depart= ure
>control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something t= he
>requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while distra= cted,
> I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am= down low
>like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, th= e
>plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so.
>  
> I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag a= nd slows
>your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy= a couple
>seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before= the
>guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the tw= o
>scenarios).
>  
> Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the >EAA, "There is  no FAA approved flight manual or PO= H for experimental
>aircraft, nor is there a  TC". 
>  
> Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded= thier
>flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of = the
>hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were m= eant
>to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also=
>likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year t= o fly
>all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeof= f.
>  
> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of saf= ety"
>  I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree = that flaps
>do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so= I can
>see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you la= nd at makes
>such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane th= at
>lands at a slower speed.
>  
> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH make= s
>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Moo= ney
>board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard= the
>same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely = reckless
>and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had= a
>point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off w= ith
>flaps.
>  
> Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our =
>planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they al= ways
>go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the = plane
>will fly just fine without them.
>  
> Matt
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Art Jensen <flycassu= tts@yahoo.com>
> To: lml@lancaironline.net=
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
> Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv
>  
> Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth remai= ns
>that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown = then
>you should not be flying that plane.
>
> I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety an= d
>should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe e= very
>instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree.  If an i= nstructor
>reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me.
>
> Art
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From:  steve <n5276j@ao= l.com>;  To:  <lml@lancaironline.net>;  Subject:
> [LML] Re: To Marv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:2= 8 PM    
> I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.
>
> steve alderman   N25SA  360
>
> .
> -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com>
>To: lml <lml@lancaironline.= net> Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
>[LML] To Marv  
> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to = Matt
>appeared on the LML.  This has always been a constructive exchange= of
>information and ideas.  That type of personal comment is not in ke= eping with
>the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.
>  
> Claudette  

--
 
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