X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 07:51:51 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6416858 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:07:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=FY+1NeC6 c=1 sm=0 a=+kuJ7Sa7hUpxs7xJxzDFzQ==:17 a=AeF9CLZUGkAA:10 a=Xg1Lz1JJSHAA:10 a=zTVDa7HKqxcA:10 a=doupyKFmAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=IBDHsxfn6PcA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=fLuM78UsAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=fN096j99kt-hfj884oYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=CVU0O5Kb7MsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=3jk_M6PjnjYA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=vFJ-4Q3dPRFc303qfCMA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=YF11V3cjPm0WDdcW:21 a=+kuJ7Sa7hUpxs7xJxzDFzQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Authenticated-User: X-Originating-IP: 76.179.81.18 Received: from [76.179.81.18] ([76.179.81.18:52307] helo=WilliamHP) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id D5/63-09254-52CBA025; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:07:18 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <3F16A955364A4D8A9B599F4E5A0BF41D@WilliamHP> From: "Bill Wade" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:07:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0075_01CE9858.5268D8B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01CE9858.5268D8B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a comparable situation, though on landing. A Cessna taxied onto = the runway and started to roll while I was on short final. I had been = distracted entering the pattern and was operating on a tip tank instead = of switching to the main as I usually do. Rather than overrun a = slow-moving plane with an unpredictable pilot I decided to firewall it, = pull up and leave the pattern. When I did the tank unported. The engine = died instantly, about 3- 400=E2=80=99 AGL. No time to change anything, = troubleshoot, or try for a restart, and no time for panic either- I was = looking straight at the ground. Luckily I was in landing configuration, = gear out and half flaps, over a clean (no stubble) field. No = maneuvering- I just went down. I had experience flying without reference = to gauges and knew the feel of the plane so I kept my eyes outside. That = might not be so easy with a Lancair. Made a perfect 3-point landing (with photos to prove it), again by luck- = no reference for flare. I rolled to a stop just at the edge of the = farmer=E2=80=99s lawn. No damage or prop strike and overnight the thin = layer of mud froze so I was able to taxi and fly off. Oh, and I got a = good aviation lawyer right away. From my experience, don=E2=80=99t count on doing anything except keeping = the plane under control unless you have a lot of altitude. -Bill Wade From: Matt losangeles=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:17 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Subject: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? Good question. It really depends on how low. If it is low to the point where I am not = going to make it to low key, I am going to land straight ahead = somewhere. If it is my home field I am putting on the train tracks which = run parallel to the runway and right next to it, KWHP while praying for = no train. It is very much a part of my process to work the trim and = flaps at the same time after I put the gear down. I image in this = situation I will not be putting the gear down, I have always planned on = belly up for this scenario. The sudden loss of power is going to demand = a pitch change so I am sure I will be doing that instinctively. Will I = be running the flaps down at the same time, who knows. Perhaps if I = remember to. It is likely because that is what I always do when I get = ready to land, run the flaps and trim at the same time while looking out = the left window at my flap position. I also make trim changes in flight = all the time like when I level off. I am not running the flaps then so = who knows. I might forget and end up landing fast. With the heart = pumping and the stress it is hard to say for certain what would happen. = I do know this, there is a certain small chance that I wouldn't have = time to or would forget to put the flaps down for landing in this = situation. I also know that there is a certain small chance that I take = off and departure gives me some instruction that requires me to look at = my map, I am stillchoosing the I don't want departure to distract me and = cause me to fixate at the wrong time causing my plane to be pointed nose = up at 1000 agl because they distracted me while I was cleaning my flaps = up. Ohh, I have been distracted this way in the past while taking off. = It is hard to always ignore the controllers. They tend to switch things = on you right when you check in with them sometimes requiring you to = write things down. Matt =20 From: Bill Hannahan To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:32 AM Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off? Matt, I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I = must ask a question. What do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the = engine quits? 1. Land at high speed flaps up. 2. Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while = making all the other decisions and actions required in parallel. 3. ? Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "marv@lancair.net" To: lml =20 Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? Posted for Matt losangeles : > I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off = so I=20 >don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a = >scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to = departure=20 >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something = the=20 >requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while = distracted,=20 > I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am down = low=20 >like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, = the=20 >plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so. > =20 > I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and = slows=20 >your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a = couple=20 >seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before = the=20 >guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the = two=20 >scenarios). > =20 > Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the=20 >EAA, "There is no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental=20 >aircraft, nor is there a TC". =20 > =20 > Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded = thier=20 >flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of = the=20 >hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were = meant=20 >to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also = >likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year = to fly=20 >all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on = takeoff. > =20 > "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety" > I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that = flaps=20 >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so = I can=20 >see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land at = makes=20 >such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane = that=20 >lands at a slower speed. > =20 > Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH = makes=20 >sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a = Mooney=20 >board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard = the=20 >same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely = reckless=20 >and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had = a=20 >point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off = with=20 >flaps. > =20 > Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our=20 >planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they = always=20 >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the = plane=20 >will fly just fine without them. > =20 > Matt >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Art Jensen > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv > =20 > Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth = remains=20 >that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown = then=20 >you should not be flying that plane.=20 >=20 > I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety = and=20 >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe = every=20 >instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. If an instructor=20 >reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me. >=20 > Art >=20 > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad =20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: steve ; To: ; = Subject:=20 > [LML] Re: To Marv Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM =20 > I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.=20 >=20 > steve alderman N25SA 360=20 >=20 > .=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell = =20 >To: lml Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am = Subject:=20 >[LML] To Marv =20 > It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to = Matt=20 >appeared on the LML. This has always been a constructive exchange of=20 >information and ideas. That type of personal comment is not in keeping = with=20 >the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.=20 > =20 > Claudette =20 -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01CE9858.5268D8B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  I had a comparable situation, though on landing. A Cessna = taxied=20 onto the runway and started to roll while I was on short final. I had = been=20 distracted entering the pattern and was operating on a tip tank instead = of=20 switching to the main as I usually do. Rather than overrun a slow-moving = plane=20 with an unpredictable pilot I decided to firewall it, pull up and leave = the=20 pattern. When I did the tank unported. The engine died instantly, about = 3- 400=E2=80=99=20 AGL. No time to change anything, troubleshoot, or try for a restart, and = no time=20 for panic either- I was looking straight at the ground. Luckily I was in = landing=20 configuration, gear out and half flaps, over a clean (no stubble) field. = No=20 maneuvering- I just went down. I had experience flying without reference = to=20 gauges and knew the feel of the plane so I kept my eyes outside. That = might not=20 be so easy with a Lancair.
 
Made a perfect 3-point landing (with photos to prove it), again by = luck- no=20 reference for flare. I rolled to a stop just at the edge of the = farmer=E2=80=99s lawn.=20 No damage or prop strike and overnight the thin layer of mud froze so I = was able=20 to taxi and fly off. Oh, and I got a good aviation lawyer right = away.
 
From my experience, don=E2=80=99t count on doing anything except = keeping the plane=20 under control unless you have a lot of altitude.  -Bill Wade
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Flaps on=20 take-off?
 
Good question.
 
It really depends on how low. If it is low to the point where = I am=20 not going to make it to low key, I am going to land straight ahead = somewhere. If=20 it is my home field I am putting on the train tracks which run parallel = to the=20 runway and right next to it, KWHP while praying for no train. It is very = much a=20 part of my process to work the trim and flaps at the same time after I = put the=20 gear down. I image in this situation I will not be putting the gear = down, I have=20 always planned on belly up for this scenario. The sudden loss of power = is going=20 to demand a pitch change so I am sure I will be doing that = instinctively. Will I=20 be running the flaps down at the same time, who knows. Perhaps if I = remember to.=20 It is likely because that is what I always do when I get ready to land, = run the=20 flaps and trim at the same time while looking out the left window at my = flap=20 position. I also make trim changes in flight all the time like when I = level off.=20 I am not running the flaps then so who knows. I might forget and end up = landing=20 fast. With the heart pumping and the stress it is hard to say for = certain what=20 would happen. I do know this, there is a certain small chance that I = wouldn't=20 have time to or would forget to put the flaps down for landing in this=20 situation. I also know that there is a certain small chance that I take = off and=20 departure gives me some instruction that requires me to look at my map, = I am=20 stillchoosing the I don't want departure to distract me and cause me to = fixate=20 at the wrong time causing my plane to be pointed nose up at 1000 agl = because=20 they distracted me while I was cleaning my flaps up. Ohh, I have been = distracted=20 this way in the past while taking off. It is hard to always ignore the=20 controllers. They tend to switch things on you right when you check in = with them=20 sometimes requiring you to write things down.
 
Matt
 =20
From: Bill Hannahan=20 <wfhannahan@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net =
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 = 3:32=20 AM
Subject: [LML] = Flaps on=20 take-off?
 
Matt, I agree with the others that w's insults are = inexcusable, but I=20 must ask a question.

What=20 do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the = engine=20 quits?

1. =20 Land at high speed flaps up.
2.  =20 Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while making = all the=20 other decisions and actions required in parallel.
3.  =20 ?
 
Regards,
Bill Hannahan
 
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "marv@lancair.net"=20 <marv@lancair.net>
To:=20 lml <lml>
Sent: Monday,=20 August 12, 2013 4:02 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=20 take-off?
 



Posted for Matt = losangeles=20 <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>:

> I feel much safer adding = 5 knots=20 or so on the ground before I lift off so I
>don't have to mess = with trim=20 when I am low to the ground. I could see a
>scenario where I take = off IFR=20 and I am immediately handed off to departure
>control while I am = putting=20 the flaps up. They tell me to do something the
>requires me to = look at my=20 map and the next thing you know, while distracted,
> I am at an = unusual=20 attitude really close to the ground. When I am down low
>like = that I want=20 to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, the
>plane = just keeps=20 on climbing along at Vy or so.
> 
> I also would guess = if you=20 use flaps on take off, this adds drag and slows
>your rate of = climb (I=20 have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a couple
>seconds = after take=20 off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before the
>guy = using flaps=20 (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two=20
>scenarios).
> 
> Another thing. It is an = experimental=20 aircraft. As it states on the
>EAA, "There is  no FAA = approved=20 flight manual or POH for experimental
>aircraft, nor is there = a =20 TC". 
> 
> Ohh, what about those reno racer = Legacy=20 aircraft that have just bonded thier
>flaps in place so they = can't go=20 down in order to eliminate the drag of the
>hindges. I guess they = are not=20 flying those aircraft the way they were meant
>to be flown. You = could=20 argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also
>likely they are = using=20 those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year to fly
>all over = the=20 place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on = takeoff.
> =20
> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=20 safety"
>  I personally consider myself part of everyone and = I don't=20 agree that flaps
>do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. = I use=20 them on landing so I can
>see out the window and out of habit I = suppose.=20 If the speed you land at makes
>such a difference, then the best = thing to=20 be doing is flying a plane that
>lands at a slower = speed.
> =20
> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the = POH makes=20
>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument = on a=20 Mooney
>board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a = Mooney and I=20 heard the
>same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are = completely reckless
>and should have your license taken away. At = least=20 those Mooney guys had a
>point. That was a certified aircraft = with a POH=20 that said to take off with
>flaps.
> 
> = Something else=20 to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our
>planes, = why on=20 earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they always
>go = down=20 when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the plane=20
>will fly just fine without them.
> 
> = Matt
>=20
>
> ________________________________
> From: Art = Jensen=20 <flycassutts@yahoo.com>
> To: lml@lancaironline.net
> = Sent:=20 Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
> Subject: [LML] Re: To = Marv
> =20
> Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the = truth=20 remains
>that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was = meant to be=20 flown then
>you should not be flying that plane.
> =
> I=20 believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and=20
>should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I = believe=20 every
>instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree.  = If an=20 instructor
>reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree = with=20 me.
>
> Art
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for = iPad =20
>
>
> ________________________________
> = From: =20 steve <n5276j@aol.com>;  To: =20 <lml@lancaironline.net>;  Subject:
> [LML] Re: To = Marv =20 Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM   
> I = second=20 your post. I am surprised by the comment.
>
> steve=20 alderman   N25SA  360
>
> .
> = -----Original=20 Message----- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com> =
>To:=20 lml <lml@lancaironline.net> Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am = Subject:=20
>[LML] To Marv 
> It is very regretful the comment = from=20 Wolfgang apparently directed to Matt
>appeared on the LML.  = This has=20 always been a constructive exchange of
>information and = ideas.  That=20 type of personal comment is not in keeping with
>the spirit of=20 cooperative sharing of information.
>  
>=20 Claudette  

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