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[174.233.192.191]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nv6sm45619026pbc.6.2013.08.13.12.37.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? References: From: Todd Long Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-53E84CC7-EE0D-4F77-AE30-5BB2C110AF15 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B329) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:37:11 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-53E84CC7-EE0D-4F77-AE30-5BB2C110AF15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it is that task saturating just ask for a heading. They will give it to y= ou to get you in the right direction. In thousands of hours I can't think of= 1 time right after departure that I got a reroute while retracting flaps. A= nd I regularly fly in the busiest atc areas. I Never be afraid to ask for a heading while reprogramming a route or looking i= t up. Did it all the time before flying FMS which is so easy to get the fir= st point into.=20 They almost always say " I have a change to your route. Let me know when you= are ready to copy" simply reply "give me a heading, ready to copy. " Typing and grammar errors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone. On Aug 13, 2013, at 14:17, Matt losangeles wrot= e: > Good question. > =20 > It really depends on how low. If it is low to the point where I am not goi= ng to make it to low key, I am going to land straight ahead somewhere. If it= is my home field I am putting on the train tracks which run parallel to the= runway and right next to it, KWHP while praying for no train. It is very mu= ch a part of my process to work the trim and flaps at the same time after I p= ut the gear down. I image in this situation I will not be putting the gear d= own, I have always planned on belly up for this scenario. The sudden loss of= power is going to demand a pitch change so I am sure I will be doing that i= nstinctively. Will I be running the flaps down at the same time, who knows. P= erhaps if I remember to. It is likely because that is what I always do when I= get ready to land, run the flaps and trim at the same time while looking ou= t the left window at my flap position. I also make trim changes in flight al= l the time like when I level off. I am not running the flaps then so who kno= ws. I might forget and end up landing fast. With the heart pumping and the s= tress it is hard to say for certain what would happen. I do know this, there= is a certain small chance that I wouldn't have time to or would forget to p= ut the flaps down for landing in this situation. I also know that there is a= certain small chance that I take off and departure gives me some instructio= n that requires me to look at my map, I am stillchoosing the I don't want de= parture to distract me and cause me to fixate at the wrong time causing my p= lane to be pointed nose up at 1000 agl because they distracted me while I wa= s cleaning my flaps up. Ohh, I have been distracted this way in the past whi= le taking off. It is hard to always ignore the controllers. They tend to swi= tch things on you right when you check in with them sometimes requiring you t= o write things down. > =20 > Matt > =20 > From: Bill Hannahan > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:32 AM > Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off? >=20 > Matt, I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must= ask a question. >=20 > What do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the en= gine quits? >=20 > 1. Land at high speed flaps up. >=20 > 2. Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while mak= ing all the other decisions and actions required in parallel. >=20 > 3. ? > =20 > Regards, > Bill Hannahan >=20 > wfhannahan@yahoo.com >=20 > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: "marv@lancair.net" > To: lml =20 > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Posted for Matt losangeles : >=20 > > I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off s= o I=20 > >don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a=20= > >scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departur= e=20 > >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the= =20 > >requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while distract= ed,=20 > > I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am down l= ow=20 > >like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, the=20= > >plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so. > > =20 > > I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and slow= s=20 > >your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a coup= le=20 > >seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before t= he=20 > >guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two=20= > >scenarios). > > =20 > > Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the=20 > >EAA, "There is no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental=20 > >aircraft, nor is there a TC". =20 > > =20 > > Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded t= hier=20 > >flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of th= e=20 > >hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were mea= nt=20 > >to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also=20= > >likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year to f= ly=20 > >all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.= > > =20 > > "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety" > > I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that fl= aps=20 > >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so I= can=20 > >see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land at m= akes=20 > >such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that= =20 > >lands at a slower speed. > > =20 > > Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH makes=20= > >sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Moone= y=20 > >board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard t= he=20 > >same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely reckles= s=20 > >and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a= =20 > >point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off wit= h=20 > >flaps. > > =20 > > Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our=20= > >planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they alwa= ys=20 > >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the pl= ane=20 > >will fly just fine without them. > > =20 > > Matt > >=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________ > > From: Art Jensen > > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM > > Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv > > =20 > > Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth remains= =20 > >that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown th= en=20 > >you should not be flying that plane.=20 > >=20 > > I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and=20= > >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe eve= ry=20 > >instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. If an instructor=20= > >reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me. > >=20 > > Art > >=20 > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad =20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________ > > From: steve ; To: ; Subject:=20= > > [LML] Re: To Marv Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM =20 > > I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.=20 > >=20 > > steve alderman N25SA 360=20 > >=20 > > .=20 > > -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell =20 > >To: lml Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:=20= > >[LML] To Marv =20 > > It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Ma= tt=20 > >appeared on the LML. This has always been a constructive exchange of=20 > >information and ideas. That type of personal comment is not in keeping w= ith=20 > >the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.=20 > > =20 > > Claudette =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-53E84CC7-EE0D-4F77-AE30-5BB2C110AF15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If it is that task saturating just ask= for a heading. They will give it to you to get you in the right direction. I= n thousands of hours I can't think of 1 time right after departure that I go= t a reroute while retracting flaps. And I regularly fly in the busiest atc a= reas. I
Never be afraid to ask for a heading while reprogramming a= route or looking it up. Did it all the time before flying FMS which is so e= asy  to get the first point into. 
They almost always sa= y " I have a change to your route. Let me know when you are ready to copy" s= imply reply "give me a heading, ready to copy. "

Typing and grammar e= rrors courtesy of Siri and the iPhone.

On Aug 13, 2013, at 14:= 17, Matt losangeles <mattin= losangeles@yahoo.com> wrote:

<= div>
Good question.
 
It really depends on how low= . If it is low to the point where I am not going to make it to low key, I am= going to land straight ahead somewhere. If it is my home field I am putting= on the train tracks which run parallel to the runway and right next to it, K= WHP while praying for no train. It is very much a part of my process to= work the trim and flaps at the same time after I put the gear down. I image= in this situation I will not be putting the gear down, I have always planne= d on belly up for this scenario. The sudden loss of power is going to demand= a pitch change so I am sure I will be doing that instinctively. Will I be r= unning the flaps down at the same time, who knows. Perhaps if I remember to.= It is likely because that is what I always do when I get ready to land, run the flaps and trim at the same time while loo= king out the left window at my flap position. I also make trim changes in fl= ight all the time like when I level off. I am not running the flaps then so w= ho knows. I might forget and end up landing fast. With the heart pumping and= the stress it is hard to say for certain what would happen. I do know this,= there is a certain small chance that I wouldn't have time to or would forge= t to put the flaps down for landing in this situation. I also know that ther= e is a certain small chance that I take off and departure gives me some inst= ruction that requires me to look at my map, I am stillchoosing the I don't w= ant departure to distract me and cause me to fixate at the wrong time causin= g my plane to be pointed nose up at 1000 agl because they distracted me whil= e I was cleaning my flaps up. Ohh, I have been distracted this way in the pa= st while taking off. It is hard to always ignore the controllers. They tend to switch things on you right when you check in with= them sometimes requiring you to write things down.
<= /span> 
Matt
 
From: Bill Ha= nnahan <wfhannahan@yahoo.com&= gt;
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:32 AM
= Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-o= ff?

Matt, I ag= ree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a quest= ion.

<= /span>
What do yo= u do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the engine quits?<= /span>

1.  Land at high speed flaps up.

2.   Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and p= itch change while making all the other decisions and actions required in par= allel.

3. =   ?
 
Regards,
Bill Han= nahan

----- Forwarded M= essage -----
From: "marv@lanc= air.net" <marv@lancair.net>= ;
To: lml <lml> <= br> Sent: Monday, August 12= , 2013 4:02 PM
Subject:= [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?




Posted for Matt= losangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com= >:

> I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground b= efore I lift off so I
>don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a
>scenario where I= take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure
>control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do somethin= g the
>requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while distracted,
> I am at an unusual attitude really close to t= he ground. When I am down low
>like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, the
>plane just keeps on climbing a= long at Vy or so.
>  
> I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and slows
>your rate of climb (= I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a couple
>seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude bef= ore the
>guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two
>scenarios).
>  
> Another thing. It i= s an experimental aircraft. As it states on the
>EAA, "There is  no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental
>= aircraft, nor is there a  TC". 
>  
> Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier=
>flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the
>hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the w= ay they were meant
>to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also
>likely they are using those planes the o= ther 51 weeks out of the year to fly
>all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.
>  
> "I belie= ve everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety"
>  I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that f= laps
>do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so I can
>see out the window and out of habit I suppose. = ;If the speed you land at makes
>such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that
>lands at a slower speed.>  
> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH makes
>sense. It is funny, I remember having this E= XACT same argument on a Mooney
>board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard the
>same thing there. Follow t= he POH explicitly or you are completely reckless
>and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a
>point= . That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with
>flaps.
>  
> Something else to consider, if flaps a= re so critical to flight on our
>planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they always
>go down when needed like= our landing gear has? My guess is because the plane
>will fly just fine without them.
>  
> Matt
>
>
> ___= _____________________________
> From: Art Jensen <flycassutts@yahoo.com>> To: lml@lancaironline.net
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
> Subject: [LML] Re: T= o Marv
>  
> Maybe Wolfgang was short on political corre= ctness, but the truth remains
>that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown then
>you should not be flying that= plane.
>
> I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and
>should be used for take-off and landing as pe= r your POH and I believe every
>instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree.  If an instructor
>reading this disagr= ees, please share why you disagree with me.
>
> Art
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
>
>
>= ; ________________________________
> From:  steve <n5276j@aol.com>;  To:=   <lml@lancaironline.n= et>;  Subject:
> [LML] Re: To Marv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM  &nb= sp; 
> I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.
>
> steve alderman   N25SA  360
>
&g= t; .
> -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com> >To: lml <lml@lancaironline.= net> Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
>[LML] To Marv  
> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang appa= rently directed to Matt
>appeared on the LML.  This has always been a constructive exchange of
>information and ideas.  That ty= pe of personal comment is not in keeping with
>the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.
>  
> Claudette =  

--

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